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Nick Bourne
Location: London, United Kingdom Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 44
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 Posted: Sun 11 Jul, 2010 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Dave,
I have to say your group has some of the best looking kit of any I've seen from any period, it was also very cool seeing you guys at Sutton Hoo over the previous two years, its like the dead king and his bodyguard back from the barrow.
Nick
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 12:38 am Post subject: Vendel period |
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Hi Nick
Thanks for the kind words,and I'm sure the guys will appreciate your compliments although in truth there are many other great groups equally enthusiastic in there own period of interest.
At sutton Hoo and Marle we where also present with Ulfhednar Germany fellow members
At home we do have other recreations and assemblages in the planning and manufacturing process which we hope will be ready for next year.
We will be present at the Kelmarsh Living History festival in support of the Portable antiquities Scheme next weekend so do keep an eye out if your there with the Vik.
best wishes
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Nick Bourne
Location: London, United Kingdom Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Mon 12 Jul, 2010 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Dave,
I look forward to seeing your new stuff!
Unfortunately I don't believe the Vik will be at Kelmarsh in the same force as last year, and I'm it missing due to an ill timed holiday :( . But anyway I hope it will be as much fun as last year to those that do go.
Nick
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P. L. Gross
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| Posted: Sat 31 Jul, 2010 7:14 am Post subject: |
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This thread has been wonderful to read! I originally came to it hoping to find information on early Viking Age (800 to about 830) not metallic armor. Now I am very very curious about the leather robe like garments you guys are wearing. How widespread was their use? Are there any fragments/remains of them or are they only known from period art?
-Pete
From his weapons on the open road no man should step one pace away; you don't know for certain when you're on the open road when you might have need of your spear.
-Havamal
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Mon 02 Aug, 2010 9:29 am Post subject: |
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Just before the recent Aland Vikingmarket I got my new underarmour garment finished. It's design is based on the images from the decorated plates on the helmets of this period, and it was done by a fellow forumite - many hours of sewing by hand went into project after many hours of research (many thanks to Paul Mortimer for his help with the design and invaluable information from his own experiences with the leather version of the garment). It was decided early on that the garment will be made from several layers of wool sandwitched between linen layers, with thickness of wool layers varying, depending on the position on the body - more layers on the shoulders, less on the area of arm that is protected by splinted bracer (based on Valsgarde 8 grave design). I have to say that this style of underarmour garment is extremely comfortable to wear, even in hot weather (it was bloody hot during the event), and probably would offer at least some measure of protection by itself.
Anyways, here is how it looks with me wearing borrowed Sutton-hoo helmet.
 Attachment: 169.06 KB
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P. L. Gross
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| Posted: Mon 02 Aug, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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That looks great! It must have taken long indeed to sew something like that. I imagine it very likely would provide decent protection, at least against cuts. Is there any evidence for how long such garments were in use?
-Pete
From his weapons on the open road no man should step one pace away; you don't know for certain when you're on the open road when you might have need of your spear.
-Havamal
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Artis Aboltins
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| Posted: Mon 02 Aug, 2010 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| P. L. Gross wrote: | That looks great! It must have taken long indeed to sew something like that. I imagine it very likely would provide decent protection, at least against cuts. Is there any evidence for how long such garments were in use?
-Pete |
Images of similar garments can be seen on the decorative plates from Sutton-hoo, Vendel and Valsgarde helmets as well as guldgubbar dating up to the end of Migration period (early viking age).
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P. L. Gross
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| Posted: Tue 03 Aug, 2010 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, I'll have to do some study on those. Hopefully my efforts will turn out as well as yours did. :)
-Pete
From his weapons on the open road no man should step one pace away; you don't know for certain when you're on the open road when you might have need of your spear.
-Havamal
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Paul Mortimer
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| Posted: Wed 04 Aug, 2010 1:52 am Post subject: |
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The warrior coat looks excellent, Artis.
Even my leather version is reasonably comfortable in hot weather and great when it is cold.
Well done -- great tailoring.
Paul
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Matthew Bunker
Location: Somerset UK Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 483
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| Posted: Thu 05 Aug, 2010 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| Andrew Rees wrote: |
Greta Arwidsson's "Valsgarde 8"
Ein neuer Rekonstrucktionsvorschalg zum Panzerfunde von Valsgarde by Paul Post
Acta Archaeologica, Vol 10, Armor of the Vendel Period
I am not conversant in German but I do know how to use some of the on line translation sites.
Are these sources likely to give me the information I am looking for? Are there any sources in English that would have the information? Does anyone have the information in a handy digital format? |
Andrew, the Arwidsson book does give you accurate measurements, photographs and drawings of the surviving splints from the limb armour (even though the reconstruction of the time was way off the mark). I can scan in the relevent pages for you if you still need them?
I've attatched a photo of them that I took.
Not sure if any work has been done relating to size of the individual for who they were made. Hard to judge, given that it was a cremation burial.
Attachment: 112.12 KB
[ Download ]
"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Gregory Alan Singer
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| Posted: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 12:25 am Post subject: |
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I just looked through the arguments about the battle worthiness of helms.
how often do you think some one got a free swing at a migration era king or prince ?
the intimidation factor seems to be there in spades.
not just the imagery of the helm but the the idea a warrior gained his wealth from doing his job (killing people) and a rich display meant he was very good at his job.
this may not stop a very brave person (but most people are not very brave) but if the average warrior had second thoughts about facing such a hero their hesitation could be turned in to their death if the warrior was actually skilled.the more timid my avoid the person all together. these factors would seem to have a very real effect on surviving a battle even if the helm was made of paper :)
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Gregory Alan Singer wrote: |
this may not stop a very brave person (but most people are not very brave) but if the average warrior had second thoughts about facing such a hero their hesitation could be turned in to their death if the warrior was actually skilled.the more timid my avoid the person all together. these factors would seem to have a very real effect on surviving a battle even if the helm was made of paper :) |
I like this theory as animals also use display to intimidate and historically a great deal of " military " costuming had no real protective uses like tall feather or horse hair crests, war paint, tattoos etc .....
A helm that is scary is good psychological warfare and when actually very protective it gives a big advantage in a period where the poor average warrior might have only a spear, shield, axe and knife: An elite noble warrior with helm. maille shirt, sword would have a big advantage even if just only just as skilled as the average warrior and even more scary if the skills matched the " Terror " effects of the helm.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Gregory Alan Singer wrote: | I just looked through the arguments about the battle worthiness of helms.
how often do you think some one got a free swing at a migration era king or prince ? |
And even if you got a free swing, why even consider striking at the *hardest* part?? I really think that very few warriors, at least those who wanted to survive the afternoon, would bother swinging at a helmet or armor of any sort. Sure, you *might* get through it, or cause some damage to the guy without getting through it, but do you want to bet your life on it? Plus, assuming I get lucky and win, don't I get to keep the helmet? I don't want a big ugly hole in it!
Save your energy, go for the soft parts.
Matthew
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Gregory Alan Singer
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| Posted: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew Amt wrote: | | Gregory Alan Singer wrote: | I just looked through the arguments about the battle worthiness of helms.
how often do you think some one got a free swing at a migration era king or prince ? |
And even if you got a free swing, why even consider striking at the *hardest* part?? I really think that very few warriors, at least those who wanted to survive the afternoon, would bother swinging at a helmet or armor of any sort. Sure, you *might* get through it, or cause some damage to the guy without getting through it, but do you want to bet your life on it? Plus, assuming I get lucky and win, don't I get to keep the helmet? I don't want a big ugly hole in it!
Save your energy, go for the soft parts.
Matthew |
the most open and life threatening targets are the ones that you would be avoiding.
I am all for hitting unarmored bits but while that is simple in an individual duels, making such a committed attack against some one in a shield wall would likely be the last thing you ever did :)
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Gregory Alan Singer wrote: | the most open and life threatening targets are the ones that you would be avoiding.
I am all for hitting unarmored bits but while that is simple in an individual duels, making such a committed attack against some one in a shield wall would likely be the last thing you ever did :) |
Huh, I'm curious, why is that? I haven't done much in the way of competitive combat, but it seems to me that if I were faced by someone with body armor and an enclosed helmet in a melee, I'd be more likely to jab at his legs or whatever I can see of his arms. A feint (or not feint!) at his eyeholes might help, but if he made a good block and counter that could get me hurt, I'm guessing. But I know that it takes very little strength to cut clothing and flesh, so all I have to do is connect with a limb to wound him, if only a little. And in a melee, there *might* be more opportunity for him to get distracted, giving me an opening (or one of the other 14 guys piling in to try to get that helmet, ha!). All I have to do is keep from getting distracted myself... And be careful if I'm looking down at his legs to not stop looking up as well!
Yuck, a good mailshirt and a Valsgarde helmet, coming my way--got to assume he knows his stuff, and is surrounded by retainers who are nearly as snazzy. Giving ground to wait for an opening will only go so far before it turns into retreat, and there goes the battle! Rats, I REALLY want that helmet...
Matthew
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Matthew Bunker
Location: Somerset UK Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 483
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| Posted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew Amt wrote: |
Huh, I'm curious, why is that? |
Think about it. You're in a close shield wall and your primary weapon is a spear (because that's everyone's primary weapon in an early medieval shield wall, so stop thinking in terms of swinging short arms at targets) , which your using overarm over the top of your shield to thrust at the opposing wall. The only targets open to you is the face, neck and possibly shoulders of the man facing you or the man to either side of him.
The only way to hit anything else would be extend your weapon arm over the top of your shield (or, even worse, open up your shield completely) and, as soon as you do that, BAM, you're going to get a spear in the shoulder/neck/face etc from someone diagonal to you in the other sides shield wall.
"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 1:06 am Post subject: Vendel |
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Couldn't have said better myself Matt. And again while the spear was the primary weapon,the primary defence was the warrior's shield, not necessarily his helm or any body armour. The helms are much more then just body protection, but also display items that signify and legitimise the wearers standing as war and cult leader.
It should also be said that many of these leaders did come to their own particular end on the battle field!
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Mon 16 Aug, 2010 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Yes, early medieval kings were not that untouchable on the battlefield since they mostly had to personally lead their warriors in a fight. So they definitely need both functional and impressive looking armor.
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Gregory Alan Singer
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| Posted: Sat 21 Aug, 2010 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Vendel |
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It should also be said that many of these leaders did come to their own particular end on the battle field!
best
Dave[/quote]
normally because things went to hell in a big way (blunders and bravado)
on a archery light shield slog you would be hard pressed to take out one of these guys until you broke his unit . I remember that there was a major Germanic prejudice against hearth-man who fled the sight of their ring-givers death with out avenging that death.That lord gave you your wealth and status and his continued well being was often more dear than your own life.
and on the other hand having a dozen guys who are willing to die if need be to keep you alive could make for some heroic exploits
the lord knows no matter what those guys got his back... See Blunders & Bravado
:D
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Sun 22 Aug, 2010 12:10 pm Post subject: Vendel Period |
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See the OE poems 'The Battle of Maldon' and 'The Wanderer' which I think best sum up this heroic ideal...,' heart the harder' etc
best
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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This is a