I could have sworn I said this before, but I cannot find it.
I have no opinion on the quaility of Angel sword blades. They may indeed be magnificent. However, I must say I find many of their hilts most displeaseing to look upon, by and large. For the prices asked, I would very much like to see a more refined hilt.
Never looked at these before. Some of them are interesting, if obviously fantasy pieces. There custom Bright Knight's don't seem to be too above average, but a few of them were not visually to my taste, and some of them were rather expensive ($5000 and up to $10000). Personally I'd get a piece made by Jacob Powning or Peter Johnson for that money, but that's just my opinion. Also, I read this:
which I've never heard of, and would like to know more about.
| Quote: |
| Our advanced thermal processing is a computer-controlled treatment that uses both heat and extreme cold to enhance the uniformity, strength, durability and toughness of steel and other alloys. |
which I've never heard of, and would like to know more about.
Hi Jeremy,
I agree, these blades were meant to be used. Are you putting a notch on your grip for each electrical appliance? ;-) I almost took out a printer, but mine was deliberate. I had an HP that was constantly jamming. I sent it in and they sent me a refurbished one in exchange. That one did the same thing, but didn't start until a month after the warranty period ended. In the end I had to send it back to work to balance out my expense account, or else that printer would be swinging from a rope while my sword gave it the death of a thousand cuts. First the keypad, then the scanner plate, then the ink cartridges, etc....
Which AS did you get? Can you post a pic?
I agree, these blades were meant to be used. Are you putting a notch on your grip for each electrical appliance? ;-) I almost took out a printer, but mine was deliberate. I had an HP that was constantly jamming. I sent it in and they sent me a refurbished one in exchange. That one did the same thing, but didn't start until a month after the warranty period ended. In the end I had to send it back to work to balance out my expense account, or else that printer would be swinging from a rope while my sword gave it the death of a thousand cuts. First the keypad, then the scanner plate, then the ink cartridges, etc....
Which AS did you get? Can you post a pic?
Check the Sword Arts Forums under "The Smithy" (I think). Available from the main website.
If you don't find it, life can be as simple as signing in as a new member and asking whatever is on your mind.
"Personally I'd get a piece made by Jacob Powning or Peter Johnson for that money,"
Great makers but there may be the small matter of availability. There are a lot of people in those lines.....
If you don't find it, life can be as simple as signing in as a new member and asking whatever is on your mind.
"Personally I'd get a piece made by Jacob Powning or Peter Johnson for that money,"
Great makers but there may be the small matter of availability. There are a lot of people in those lines.....
A couple people asked me to come onto this thread and offer an unbiased opinion, since I'm somewhat familiar with both forum crowds and their cyber-cultures. I'm not really sure, though, what I can contribute to this discussion that hasn't already been said. The historical vs. fantasy aesthetic debate has been recognized as a matter of personal taste, while the metallurgy I have very little knowledge about (and even less interest in).
I can say this, though -- they make a mean sword/pimp cane! Mine has seen years of street-work and is still going strong -- this is from last Saturday... :cool:
[ Linked Image ]
I can say this, though -- they make a mean sword/pimp cane! Mine has seen years of street-work and is still going strong -- this is from last Saturday... :cool:
[ Linked Image ]
Edited for content :\
Last edited by Jay Barron on Sun 07 May, 2006 7:25 am; edited 2 times in total
| Roger Hooper wrote: |
| OK, 10K swords are the higher end ones. Still, if I was going to spend between $1000.00 and $5000.00, I would get an Albion Museum piece, or a custom sword from Kevin Cashen, Vince Evans, or Peter Johnsson. But that is just my individual taste. |
I think in that range I'd have to look into period pieces from auction houses and collections. Although I'd have to learn quite a bit regarding what to look for and who to trust.
I was recently allowed to handle half a dozen originals from a private collection ranging from 15th to 18th century. Its the first time I've ever been able to handle REAL period arms, and I was pleasantly surprised. I'm not sure there are many reproductions that stack up when price points begin to overlap the low end of antiques.
What it really comes down to is that different things appeal to different people. That might be an historically copied sword or it may be a sword that is made according to the desires of the smith. Neither one is right or wrong. And what is beauty in the eyes of one beholder is not desired in the eyes of another ... but you shouldn't slam something just because you personally don't happen to like it -- especially when you haven't done the research.
Jeremy says he'd buy another smith's blade now ... and there's nothing wrong with that. Tastes and ideas change. He's still used it for a lot of cutting and done some strange things with it. I'd like to see his review after he's put other smith's blades through the same abuse. (Dude, it doesn't take much too send the blade back to AS for a touchup ... it's what any smith would expect and you will get it back quickly.)
For the record, I've worked (and am working now at Scarborough Faire) in the Angel Sword booth. We do not pressure anyone to buy any blade. We simply put a blade in someone's hands and let them make the decision. That is no more or less than any other swordsmith would do. I do not recall anyone talking about "super steels" at any time. We do answer people's questions about how swords are made, etc. We do tend, among ourselves, to put the swords and knives to some extreme uses. .... And, no, this is not a commercial for AS! lol
Atrim and others that are mentioned on the forums here don't seem to sell at the Faires in Texas so I have not been able to see any of their blades up close and personal; and you won't hear conjecture from me on their blades. How could I when I haven't held them in my hand or cut with them? Let's at least offer the same courtesy to smiths that don't create totally historically accurate blades. Obviously I like AS blades ... particularly the knives of which I have a few. There are other non-historical smiths who I do not trust and whose blades I would never buy because I believe they make an inferior product. Even those of us who work for Daniel will ask him what the heck he thought he was doing with a particular blade but then there are many more that are beautiful in art, beautiful in workmanship and with a balance such that the blade becomes an extension of your hand and arm. Isn't that ultimately what so many are really after?
BTW ... watch for a MythBusters episode sometime this summer where they explore the myth of swords cutting other swords in half (as they do so often in the movies!). A variety of swords were used, including two AS blades. It'll be interesting to see what happens. I don't know where the other swords used in the show came from as the smiths requested they not be identified. Mythbusters also said they intended to a second episode on the myth of swords cutting guns in half (yet another movie myth
Jeremy says he'd buy another smith's blade now ... and there's nothing wrong with that. Tastes and ideas change. He's still used it for a lot of cutting and done some strange things with it. I'd like to see his review after he's put other smith's blades through the same abuse. (Dude, it doesn't take much too send the blade back to AS for a touchup ... it's what any smith would expect and you will get it back quickly.)
For the record, I've worked (and am working now at Scarborough Faire) in the Angel Sword booth. We do not pressure anyone to buy any blade. We simply put a blade in someone's hands and let them make the decision. That is no more or less than any other swordsmith would do. I do not recall anyone talking about "super steels" at any time. We do answer people's questions about how swords are made, etc. We do tend, among ourselves, to put the swords and knives to some extreme uses. .... And, no, this is not a commercial for AS! lol
Atrim and others that are mentioned on the forums here don't seem to sell at the Faires in Texas so I have not been able to see any of their blades up close and personal; and you won't hear conjecture from me on their blades. How could I when I haven't held them in my hand or cut with them? Let's at least offer the same courtesy to smiths that don't create totally historically accurate blades. Obviously I like AS blades ... particularly the knives of which I have a few. There are other non-historical smiths who I do not trust and whose blades I would never buy because I believe they make an inferior product. Even those of us who work for Daniel will ask him what the heck he thought he was doing with a particular blade but then there are many more that are beautiful in art, beautiful in workmanship and with a balance such that the blade becomes an extension of your hand and arm. Isn't that ultimately what so many are really after?
BTW ... watch for a MythBusters episode sometime this summer where they explore the myth of swords cutting other swords in half (as they do so often in the movies!). A variety of swords were used, including two AS blades. It'll be interesting to see what happens. I don't know where the other swords used in the show came from as the smiths requested they not be identified. Mythbusters also said they intended to a second episode on the myth of swords cutting guns in half (yet another movie myth
| Don Y wrote: |
| What it really comes down to is that different things appeal to different people. That might be an historically copied sword or it may be a sword that is made according to the desires of the smith. Neither one is right or wrong. And what is beauty in the eyes of one beholder is not desired in the eyes of another ... but you shouldn't slam something just because you personally don't happen to like it -- especially when you haven't done the research.
|
Don,
I think that if you review the thread you'll find that the vast majority of posts advise people look, hold, and then decide if any product from any vendor is right for their individual needs. Some people are stating that they have looked at, held, and decided products from the vendor in question were not right for them. Others that the price point is out of their value zone.
This is very different than attacking the product in question, at least in my opinion.
Overall you crafted a nice rebutal. However, chiding people for not doing research without validating who has and has not researched their opinion, is likely to compromise your overall effectiveness. Otherwise your post is articulate and makes some valid points.
FWIW I appreciate that you took the time to explain your affiliation.
It is a very honorable thing to do.
| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | ||
Never looked at these before. Some of them are interesting, if obviously fantasy pieces. There custom Bright Knight's don't seem to be too above average, but a few of them were not visually to my taste, and some of them were rather expensive ($5000 and up to $10000). Personally I'd get a piece made by Jacob Powning or Peter Johnson for that money, but that's just my opinion. Also, I read this:
which I've never heard of, and would like to know more about. |
Metallurgy: freeze-treating metal? Angus Trim?
Angel Sword's Thermal Processing Review
The "Cryo" experiment
| Jay Barron wrote: |
| Wow! Sweet bling, man. And I'll bet that cane is great for when you have to show a beeyotch whose boss :lol:
(man, I'm glad my wife didn't see me type this. She'd smack me up good.) |
Jay,
This comment is not only off-topic but is entirely inappropriate, here and in many circles.
Well, let me step up and take the heat for Jay, since I posted the photo that occasioned his comment. The smilie, and his follow-up disclaimer, make it clear that he was simply making a natural humorous response to an idea I put out, an idea which is already a stock image of popular culture which is generally understood to be taken in jest. So, if there's any "playa-hatin'" let it be directed at me instead of him. :cool: Jay's been a long-time positive contributor to this and other forums and certainly deserves the benefit of any doubt about his posting intentions.
Now, here's something else to mill over, that's central to the Angel Sword issue...
There's an underlying assumption on the part of historically-inclined sword enthusiasts that the physical parameters of historical designs are maximally effective, since only they have been subjected to functional feedback. The underlying assumption from Angel Sword is that its metallurgy has allowed sufficient change in blade properties that those historical physical parameters are not absolute indicators of maximal efficiency, but rather maximized efficiency under metallurgical constraints. That is to say, Angel Swords metallurgy has re-defined the paramaters of effectiveness and consequently the constraints on historical designs.
This seems to be the crux of the debate, and with different a priori assumptions it's unlikely there'll ever be a resolution. The variable under question, mamimum efficiency, is difficult to either qualify or quantify, so until a testable definition is agreed on that matter must remain unresolved. I do have my own (unbiased!) opinion on it, but as it's more impressionistic than substantive there's no real point sharing it.
Now, here's something else to mill over, that's central to the Angel Sword issue...
There's an underlying assumption on the part of historically-inclined sword enthusiasts that the physical parameters of historical designs are maximally effective, since only they have been subjected to functional feedback. The underlying assumption from Angel Sword is that its metallurgy has allowed sufficient change in blade properties that those historical physical parameters are not absolute indicators of maximal efficiency, but rather maximized efficiency under metallurgical constraints. That is to say, Angel Swords metallurgy has re-defined the paramaters of effectiveness and consequently the constraints on historical designs.
This seems to be the crux of the debate, and with different a priori assumptions it's unlikely there'll ever be a resolution. The variable under question, mamimum efficiency, is difficult to either qualify or quantify, so until a testable definition is agreed on that matter must remain unresolved. I do have my own (unbiased!) opinion on it, but as it's more impressionistic than substantive there's no real point sharing it.
| Ruel A. Macaraeg wrote: |
| Well, let me step up and take the heat for Jay, since I posted the photo that occasioned his comment. The smilie, and his follow-up disclaimer, make it clear that he was simply making a natural humorous response to an idea I put out, an idea which is already a stock image of popular culture which is generally understood to be taken in jest. So, if there's any "playa-hatin'" let it be directed at me instead of him. :cool: Jay's been a long-time positive contributor to this and other forums and certainly deserves the benefit of any doubt about his posting intentions.
|
Humorous intents, past contributions to the community, etc. notwithstanding comments of that nature are inappropriate and not welcome on this forum. Your picture was pushing the boundaries, too, but was not enough to warrant commentary from this moderator.
If anyone has anything else they'd like to say about that picture or any responses to it, please contact a moderator privately. Let's get this thread back onto topic (where it will hopefully stay).
Well like I said just above, I think there's an impasse because of two fundamentally different a priori assumptions, so what's needed is not so much to get "on topic" -- since the topic has stalled out at mutually exclusive assumptions -- but to attempt a redefinition of the topic, around some point that doesn't polarize the respective positions.
You're absolutely correct and I like the way you've encapsulated the impasse. This is one reason why I said at the beginning of this thread that this forum (comprised primarily of people interested in historical accuracy) is not the best place for objective discussion on this type of product. The majority of readers here will think that these swords simply don't meet their price or historical accuracy criteria, regardless of their heat treatment, materials, purported toughness, and unique styling. Those who like the product like it for reasons well beyond historical accuracy.
If Angelsword were to make a sword to satisfy my personal criteria, it likely wouldn't satisfy theirs or those of their usual customers. Them meeting my criteria is about as likely as me changing my criteria. :)
Which leaves us at that impasse.... :)
If Angelsword were to make a sword to satisfy my personal criteria, it likely wouldn't satisfy theirs or those of their usual customers. Them meeting my criteria is about as likely as me changing my criteria. :)
Which leaves us at that impasse.... :)
| Ruel A. Macaraeg wrote: |
| That is to say, Angel Swords metallurgy has re-defined the paramaters of effectiveness and consequently the constraints on historical designs. |
IMO, the problem with such a broad claim that cannot be tested in a way that will satisfy protagonists and antagonists in the debate, is that it is puffery at best and presumption at worst. Secret sauce markets very well to a specific audience. To others it plays quite poorly. Deciding whether it tastes good is still an individual exercise at the end of the day.
As for bias, no opinion is ever unbiased. In my admittedly bias opinion, the trick is to recognize and try to control the bias you frame your opinion with. Since my bias is toward what are referred to as historical designes, the firm in question needs to build some aesthetically and functionally sound histroical models before claiming everthing that came before them is invalid for whatever reason to convince me they have something nobody else has. Since I have not seen their secret sauce applied in such a way, I'm skeptical regarding claims based on the model you have presented.
The way for any company to change my opinion is rather simple. They don't have to prove anything. All they have to do is make a product that appeals to me as a consumer. Instead of telling me my opinion is irrelevant because secret sauce has redefined all paradigms, simply make something I like that works. Secret sauce or not, its a rather straight forward exercise. None of this is as hard as people make it out to be.
Last edited by Joe Fults on Mon 08 May, 2006 5:27 pm; edited 2 times in total
Hi Joe G...
Sorry man, I don't have any pics of my AS or collection for that matter...I have the AS, 2 Albions (Regent and Baron), and a Tinker XVIIIa. I can't really say which AS I got as they didn't really have a name for it. I just call it my bastard sword as it's got a 2 handed grip, but not quite as long as my other longswords. Maybe 32-34" blade with a single fuller and slightly hollowground edges (the edges don't come to their sharpness though, they seem raised slightly before coming down to their final bevel). Wood handle, swelled at the center and bronze guard and wheel pommel. Weighs maybe 2 1/2 lbs maybe a little more. When I get a digital camera I'll post pics. AS sometimes uses the same blade styles on different swords, so I'll take a look at their site to see if they have any in stock that have my blade type.
Hi Don...
That's cool that you work at the AS booth...if I lived near enough to the NY faire I'd have applied there to work on weekends! But alas it's an almost 3 hour drive for me so no good. I have used all my swords for cutting and done some unwanted things by mistake to all of them...they've all held up pretty well so far. I've got no complaints with my AS or others. If I felt it needed a touchup I'd send it in, but why touch it up if I'm gonna keep using it and it's still sharp? Other than milk jugs and cardboard I've cut saplings (under 1'' thick) and my "cutting stand" (which I'm finally making a real one next weekend) by accident with all 4 mentioned swords without any edge issues (except the AS had minor dulling due to a very fine final edge--nothing noticeable in cutting or handling though). My other swords have had their share of abuse...I've been pleased with all of them, even surprised a couple times.
I am by no means an expert, so mistakes will happen. I've been taking longsword classes, which have helped my form and now my sword (usually! ;) ) tracks where I want it to. I'll have to agree with Chad about AS's designs and personal criteria. I've moved on to historical accuracy for my studies. My Bright Knight is probably as close to historically accurate as an AS piece will become, so it still works for me. It flows well through guards and drills, so it is still a good tool in my arsenal (which is why I haven't tried selling it off to fund other purchases---and boy do I want to make purchases!)
Sorry man, I don't have any pics of my AS or collection for that matter...I have the AS, 2 Albions (Regent and Baron), and a Tinker XVIIIa. I can't really say which AS I got as they didn't really have a name for it. I just call it my bastard sword as it's got a 2 handed grip, but not quite as long as my other longswords. Maybe 32-34" blade with a single fuller and slightly hollowground edges (the edges don't come to their sharpness though, they seem raised slightly before coming down to their final bevel). Wood handle, swelled at the center and bronze guard and wheel pommel. Weighs maybe 2 1/2 lbs maybe a little more. When I get a digital camera I'll post pics. AS sometimes uses the same blade styles on different swords, so I'll take a look at their site to see if they have any in stock that have my blade type.
Hi Don...
That's cool that you work at the AS booth...if I lived near enough to the NY faire I'd have applied there to work on weekends! But alas it's an almost 3 hour drive for me so no good. I have used all my swords for cutting and done some unwanted things by mistake to all of them...they've all held up pretty well so far. I've got no complaints with my AS or others. If I felt it needed a touchup I'd send it in, but why touch it up if I'm gonna keep using it and it's still sharp? Other than milk jugs and cardboard I've cut saplings (under 1'' thick) and my "cutting stand" (which I'm finally making a real one next weekend) by accident with all 4 mentioned swords without any edge issues (except the AS had minor dulling due to a very fine final edge--nothing noticeable in cutting or handling though). My other swords have had their share of abuse...I've been pleased with all of them, even surprised a couple times.
I am by no means an expert, so mistakes will happen. I've been taking longsword classes, which have helped my form and now my sword (usually! ;) ) tracks where I want it to. I'll have to agree with Chad about AS's designs and personal criteria. I've moved on to historical accuracy for my studies. My Bright Knight is probably as close to historically accurate as an AS piece will become, so it still works for me. It flows well through guards and drills, so it is still a good tool in my arsenal (which is why I haven't tried selling it off to fund other purchases---and boy do I want to make purchases!)
AS isn't the only maker that has changed the form of their blades due to material advances. Atrims are lighter and thinner than historical blades, and can be so because 5160 is pretty tough stuff. S7 is several times tougher even without any "magick sauce", so long as the stuff is being treated at least as well as or close to aircraft spec.
That doesn't resolve the impasse, that just points out two different makers opinions on which way to go from the impasse. Gus decided to keep the form similar, but make it lighter and faster without increasing the chance of breakage. Where Daniel (AS smith) decided to decrease the chance of breakage as much as he could without hurting the weight or speed too much, although they are a bit heavy.
One of the more experienced people at my local ARMA chapter recommended against Atrim because it was too light. I think in that context he is right. If you are trying to recreate a martial art from books, you better have the same thing the guy in the picture is holding, or as close as possible.
If you are trying to see where swordsmanship could go in the new millennia, all that matters is that you SPAR a lot to make sure whatever you come up with is valid. And that would mean making wasters to match the new weights (lighter or a bit heavier).
I just use my AS to try and cut down trees, its pretty good at it and looks good (IMO) while doing so. I'm still tempted to get an AT 1555 for ARMA, just because its length and asthetics. But I might also go for the Albion Baron, Regent, or even the Museum line of the Munich whenever it comes out. Or perhaps the A&A durer? I can't make up my mind.
Its also important to point out AS makes daggers and knives, not just swords. I have some and like them all. I wish Albion would start a line of daggers. I like my A&A for the price, but I'd like some more variety. Atrim was talking about starting a dagger line too <crosses fingers>.
That doesn't resolve the impasse, that just points out two different makers opinions on which way to go from the impasse. Gus decided to keep the form similar, but make it lighter and faster without increasing the chance of breakage. Where Daniel (AS smith) decided to decrease the chance of breakage as much as he could without hurting the weight or speed too much, although they are a bit heavy.
One of the more experienced people at my local ARMA chapter recommended against Atrim because it was too light. I think in that context he is right. If you are trying to recreate a martial art from books, you better have the same thing the guy in the picture is holding, or as close as possible.
If you are trying to see where swordsmanship could go in the new millennia, all that matters is that you SPAR a lot to make sure whatever you come up with is valid. And that would mean making wasters to match the new weights (lighter or a bit heavier).
I just use my AS to try and cut down trees, its pretty good at it and looks good (IMO) while doing so. I'm still tempted to get an AT 1555 for ARMA, just because its length and asthetics. But I might also go for the Albion Baron, Regent, or even the Museum line of the Munich whenever it comes out. Or perhaps the A&A durer? I can't make up my mind.
Its also important to point out AS makes daggers and knives, not just swords. I have some and like them all. I wish Albion would start a line of daggers. I like my A&A for the price, but I'd like some more variety. Atrim was talking about starting a dagger line too <crosses fingers>.
Bill-
If you or others do their homework, you'll find that Angus Trim swords cover a large range of weights. Many of his earlier designs were quite light. Many of the recent models are on the heavier side. As it stands right now, his catalog spans from one extreme to the other in terms of weight when compared to historical swords.
Angus Trim also created a few daggers, too. The price of doing daggers isn't as much as a cost savings as many customers would like. They still have machine time, heat-treat, and finish grinding. As such, many customers would not pony up the dough to take one home. I don't think Gus is seriously pursuing that direction further than he already has.
If you or others do their homework, you'll find that Angus Trim swords cover a large range of weights. Many of his earlier designs were quite light. Many of the recent models are on the heavier side. As it stands right now, his catalog spans from one extreme to the other in terms of weight when compared to historical swords.
Angus Trim also created a few daggers, too. The price of doing daggers isn't as much as a cost savings as many customers would like. They still have machine time, heat-treat, and finish grinding. As such, many customers would not pony up the dough to take one home. I don't think Gus is seriously pursuing that direction further than he already has.
I'm sorry, the only site I know for Atrim is angustrimdirect.com and they don't have the "heavies" up yet, or the daggers, so I wasn't really sure if they were standard or just something he made a few of. I kind of figured the daggers wouldn't appeal to most. Most of the work still applies even for the short length, so I wouldn't expect the price to be much lower.
I do wish there was a place those of us out of state could look to see what all Gus is up to.
I do wish there was a place those of us out of state could look to see what all Gus is up to.
Page 2 of 3
You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
All contents © Copyright 2003-2006 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Full-featured Version of the forum
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Full-featured Version of the forum