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Quote:
Maybe focusing on which 1:33 techniques are most viable ? ( Trying to bring the subject back to the original question ).


I'd like to see more discussion on this myself.
There is sword and buckler and then there is I.33. Though I.33 represents the earliest sword and buckler teaching we have, it does not seem to correspond to later sword and buckler teachings. Though halfswording may very well have been developed between I.33 and the next several manuals, sword and buckler had been around for a while, especially in unarmoured form as I.33 and the later manuals depict. Therefore, I don't think I.33 is necessarily representative of sword and buckler during the time in which it was written. It might be, it might not be. There are certainly other ways to fight with a sword and buckler, ways that we find in later manuals where the only condition which has changed would be blade type.

From period artwork we have many depictions of bucklers being used by fighters armoured to various degrees. So the buckler certainly would show up on the battlefield. I don't know that the way it was being used corresponds to the teachings of I.33 or not. The emphasis in I.33 seems to be that the sword hand should remain covered by the buckler most all of the time. This seems beneficial if the fighter is not wearing hand protection. Since the hands are often the closet target, it still seems wise to cover them even if mitten mail gloves are being worn. While a sword blow might not cut through the mail, a good hit to the hand can be bad news in many many ways.

Beyond I.33, the buckler can be used to cover the head or most anywhere else from about the thigh to the head. An armoured fighter still would rather take a blow on the buckler than take the hit. And there are many weapons which may do much more damage to an armoured fighter than a sword cut. Other trauma weapons can hit pretty hard and need to be blocked. Spears or a thrust from a sword needs to be warded against. Bucklers are great for this kind of work. One technique depicted in I.33 which can be seen in other manuals is wraping the buckler arm around the other person's weapon after using the buckler to stop the attack. When facing a spear one on one, it is important to be able to get control of the spear after getting past the point. This wraping technique works great for that.

In general, I think the buckler is underated. Proffessional fighters including knights would know there way around the buckler. And the buckler would give good service on the battlefield. However, I don't personally know how well I.33 would be on the battlefield.
Craig Peters wrote:
Quote:
Maybe focusing on which 1:33 techniques are most viable ? ( Trying to bring the subject back to the original question ).


I'd like to see more discussion on this myself.


Well, I think defensive moves would be the same against the armoured guy's sword: Effective or not in attack one still has to stay alive long enough to do something.

For the rest, what would be effective attacks I leave to those much more knowledgeable.

Maybe this helps focusing on what might work to win/survive ! ( Running away, if possible, still seem appealing. ;) :lol: )
Thrusting still works well against mail when using a sword. The I.33 includes thrusting though it does not illustrate it. It also includes something called a "thrust strike." Honestly, I get frustrated when trying to work with I.33 and don't get much out of it. But learning guards and then what you can strike from those guards is foundational when learning to fight. Learning how to bind and counterbind and win from the bind is also important. So in these areas I.33 is valuable.

I disagree with the premise that the sword and buckler fighter would necessarily be unarmoured or less armoured. Even considering an unarmoured fighter, the sword and buckler are sufficient for fighting against a fully armoured fighter during this time period. But fully armoured fighters might still choose sword and buckler for the battlefield and with good reason. Sword and buckler works very well.
I.33 is essentially an unarmoured style. The principal targets are the forearms and the face, targets which were not armoured except among men-at-arms. Civilians, pikemen, archers etc, who would have been likely to use sword and buckler as a civilian weapons combination or a secondary weapons combination on the battlefield did not in general wear forearm or face armour. If the forearms are sufficiently protected to be able to attack without covering the arm with the buckler then you aren't doing I.33 as this is absolutely fundamental to the system.

I.33 was not restricted to civilians. Apart from the PRIEST (not a monk) and the scholar depicted in the manuscript, we have the near contemporary Manesse Codex which shows identical techniques being performed by two unarmoured knights in a tournament setting. Identical and near identical techniques are also shown being used by men in civilian dress in Joerg Wilhelm's fechtbuch from the 16th century. Additionally, the concept of separate military and civilian arts was completely alien to the period, so if you'd asked the author of I.33 whether his was a purely civilian art you'd most likely have got a blank look.

Cheers
Stephen
Hi Stephen!

Great post.

You've really made a light come on over my head. I'm now wondering if the reason we see later German sword and buckler combat stressing the arm protection aspect less has to do with armour: that is, the almost light armour afforded by later medieval doublets. Thoughts?

I completely agree about the problematic differentiation between civilian and military combat. In fact, that distinction is likely a very late one; Tom Leoni has made some excellent points suggesting that even in the era of the rapier, such distinctions were not significant.

All the best,

Christian
Greg Coffman wrote:
There is sword and buckler and then there is I.33. Though I.33 represents the earliest sword and buckler teaching we have, it does not seem to correspond to later sword and buckler teachings.


Greg

I must strongly disagree. I find a lot of similarities between I.33 and the S&B of later masters.
Brian Hunt of ARMA Utah is currently working on an article on this subject.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
I'm now wondering if the reason we see later German sword and buckler combat stressing the arm protection aspect less has to do with armour: that is, the almost light armour afforded by later medieval doublets. Thoughts?


That's an interesting point, Christian, and one I've never thought of in this context. The only problem I see with this is that Talhoffer certainly shows cuts to the forearm, and ones that apparently can dismember that arm.

My own line of thought has always been that the later manuscripts were *ready* to cover the arm as necessary, but didn't feel the need to keep it covered constantly. For example, Lignitzer's first play advises to keep the pommel of your sword by the buckler at the thumb, and here he is describing something that is akin to the first play of the zornhau. It is a position where the sword is going to directly oppose the blade, so keeping the hand covered is a good idea. (and I know you know what the play is, but I'm describing it for everyone else reading. ;) )

As an example where it may be preferable to leave the arm exposed is the wechselhau from Lignitzer's third play. Folio 53r and 53v of Paulus Kal show exactly how I'm interpreting this. I have attacked, and my opponet makes a counter attack (in Kal the opponent binds against the sword, but it is possible for him to attempt to cut at the arm in my interpretation as well). As my opponent's sword enters the distance, I immediately lift my buckler to pin him against the weak of his sword as my own sword changes through underneath to attack the leg. (and if you miss the leg, you cut back upward with the short edge of the sword against his sword, as in the nebenhut play in longsword, and so forth with the rest of the play)

If I attempted the above with my buckler covering the arm, this closes off the line, and my opponent would be forced to counter in a different method. So here I believe leaving the buckler back will draw out a specific reaction.

In other cases I feel it just doesn' t matter too much whether you keep the buckler forward or back, so the later traditions didn't bother.

But that's a bit of a tangent. :)
Hi Bill!

Bill Grandy wrote:
That's an interesting point, Christian, and one I've never thought of in this context. The only problem I see with this is that Talhoffer certainly shows cuts to the forearm, and ones that apparently can dismember that arm.


I thought about this too, but look closely at the illustrations - the cut is to the wrist, not the fabric covered forearm proper. If your only vulnerable spot is the hand and wrist themselves, this lessens the risk considerably. The apparently looser clothing in I.33 would make the whole arm vulnerable.

[qoute]My own line of thought has always been that the later manuscripts were *ready* to cover the arm as necessary, but didn't feel the need to keep it covered constantly. For example, Lignitzer's first play advises to keep the pommel of your sword by the buckler at the thumb, and here he is describing something that is akin to the first play of the zornhau. It is a position where the sword is going to directly oppose the blade, so keeping the hand covered is a good idea. (and I know you know what the play is, but I'm describing it for everyone else reading. ;) )[/quote]

I agree with this idea - and, as you too know, it's the first two plays that invoke this extra protection.

Quote:
As an example where it may be preferable to leave the arm exposed is the wechselhau from Lignitzer's third play. Folio 53r and 53v of Paulus Kal show exactly how I'm interpreting this. I have attacked, and my opponet makes a counter attack (in Kal the opponent binds against the sword, but it is possible for him to attempt to cut at the arm in my interpretation as well). As my opponent's sword enters the distance, I immediately lift my buckler to pin him against the weak of his sword as my own sword changes through underneath to attack the leg. (and if you miss the leg, you cut back upward with the short edge of the sword against his sword, as in the nebenhut play in longsword, and so forth with the rest of the play)

If I attempted the above with my buckler covering the arm, this closes off the line, and my opponent would be forced to counter in a different method. So here I believe leaving the buckler back will draw out a specific reaction.


Excellent analysis my friend!

Quote:
In other cases I feel it just doesn' t matter too much whether you keep the buckler forward or back, so the later traditions didn't bother.


Yes. Now, do bear in mind that the whole double thing is a very early hypothesis. I have to cogitate on this much more.

All the best,

Christian


Last edited by Christian Henry Tobler on Thu 19 Jul, 2007 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
I thought about this too, but look closely at the illustrations - the cut is to the wrist, not the fabric covered forearm proper. If your only vulnerable spot is the hand and wrist themselves, this lessens the risk considerably. The apparently looser clothing in I.33 would make the whole arm vulnerable.


Very interesting point... this definately calls for some more investigation. You may be on to something here!
Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
You've really made a light come on over my head. I'm now wondering if the reason we see later German sword and buckler combat stressing the arm protection aspect less has to do with armour: that is, the almost light armour afforded by later medieval doublets. Thoughts?
Christian


Hi Christian,

I wouldn't have thought that a doublet would provide enough protection to render a cut from half shield ineffective, but I'm not 100% sure. Some years ago I took a series of increasingly hard rapier cuts on my sword arm wearing a 17th century doublet to look at why sniping cuts to the forearm are never shown in rapier fencing manuals. We found that although it wasn't at all pleasant no one could cut hard enough from a terza guard to do serious damage with a rapier through a doublet. However, an arming sword is rather better at cutting than a rapier, and half shield provides for a far larger cutting arc than a rapier terza.

And of course Joerg Wilhelm shows the arm being protected as in I.33.

Cheers
Stephen
I don't know any WMA techniques, but do have lot of live-steel re-enactment experience of combat in armour of that period.

I took a hit to the body from an arming sword last week, and it winded me through mail and a good gambeson. It wasn't a full force blow. I just think that its too easy to think of a sword blow against mail as useless just because it can't cut through. It is easy to forget that it's still 3 feet of steel and still has a fair amount of bludgeoning ability. I wouldn't like to think what a number of connecting blows with force would have done. Certainly not killed/wounded me - but definately put me in a very vulnerable position.

The key thing here, though is that hacking attacks against such armour must be big, hard swings to be able to bludgeon - which makes them easier to avoid. Smaller blows, draw cuts, false edge attacks etc. are totally useless. So I guess what I'm getting at is that it is more difficult fighting against an armoured opponent because your choice of effective attacks is limited, and so those attacks can be more easily dealt with.

Even on the grappling front. If I was unarmoured, I don't think I'd want to grapple with an armoured foe. Once close, all you can do with a sword is small hacking cuts or draw cuts. These would be useless against a mail armoured opponent, but lethal against an unarmoured person. You would have to be 100% certain that on closing he can't use his sword.

I think the key really is to keep your distance, use your manoeverability to try to stay alive long enough for half a dozen of your mates come and jump him from behind.

How that applies to I.33? - I don't know.
Brian Robson wrote:
The key thing here, though is that hacking attacks against such armour must be big, hard swings to be able to bludgeon - which makes them easier to avoid. Smaller blows, draw cuts, false edge attacks etc. are totally useless. So I guess what I'm getting at is that it is more difficult fighting against an armoured opponent because your choice of effective attacks is limited, and so those attacks can be more easily dealt with.

Even on the grappling front. If I was unarmoured, I don't think I'd want to grapple with an armoured foe. Once close, all you can do with a sword is small hacking cuts or draw cuts. These would be useless against a mail armoured opponent, but lethal against an unarmoured person. You would have to be 100% certain that on closing he can't use his sword.

I think the key really is to keep your distance, use your manoeverability to try to stay alive long enough for half a dozen of your mates come and jump him from behind.

Why would false edge attacks be "totally useless?" There is a fendenti attack with the false edge (albeit this is controversial) as well as the sotani attack. Why teach these if they are useless? Grappling can be a very effective way to disable your opponent, even if he is armored and you are not. If you are in close, your opponent cannot bring his sword to bear against you effectively. You can then do very nasty things to him by grappling, because in the end, it's not about the sword, but about being the guy who walks away alive.
Jonathan Blair wrote:
Why would false edge attacks be "totally useless?" There is a fendenti attack with the false edge (albeit this is controversial) as well as the sotani attack. Why teach these if they are useless? Grappling can be a very effective way to disable your opponent, even if he is armored and you are not. If you are in close, your opponent cannot bring his sword to bear against you effectively. You can then do very nasty things to him by grappling, because in the end, it's not about the sword, but about being the guy who walks away alive.


Hi Jon,

As I mentioned, I'm no WMA-ist (is that the term?), but I can't imagine any a false-edge attack being able to inflict sufficient force to be able to bludgeon through mail/gambeson. If it is doable, then please describe it as I'd be interested to know.

I guess what I'm getting at for grappling - and probably didn't put accross very well is that an unarmoured grappler going against an armoured opponent would have to be absolutely 100% sure that his weapon is disabled/controlled as a draw-cut could be nasty. Additionally, I understand that at such an early period, advanced martial knowlege tended to be limited to the knightly/noble classes. Would an unarmoured combatant (therefore assuming lower classes) on the battlefield be trained sufficiently to be confident enough to do this?
Brian Robson wrote:

As I mentioned, I'm no WMA-ist (is that the term?), but I can't imagine any a false-edge attack being able to inflict sufficient force to be able to bludgeon through mail/gambeson. If it is doable, then please describe it as I'd be interested to know.


When you say false edge are you referring to the flat of the blade? If so, you and Jonathan Blair are talking about two different things.

Jonathan (Hopkins)
Brian Robson wrote:
As I mentioned, I'm no WMA-ist (is that the term?), but I can't imagine any a false-edge attack being able to inflict sufficient force to be able to bludgeon through mail/gambeson. If it is doable, then please describe it as I'd be interested to know.

False edge is the edge of the sword closest to the wrist, whereas the true edge is the edge nearest the knuckles. Sotani comes up from below from a modified or complete iron gate (or similar stance), so likely you'd be going for your opponent's crotch, armpit, throat: those areas requiring flexibility and therefore had less protection. You can give sotani as much force as you wish. Besides, swords cut or thrust, maces bludgeon. Yes, there was blunt force trauma from sword wounds, but the whole point (heh heh) was to cut, no matter how you slice it.

Brian Robson wrote:
I guess what I'm getting at for grappling - and probably didn't put accross very well is that an unarmoured grappler going against an armoured opponent would have to be absolutely 100% sure that his weapon is disabled/controlled as a draw-cut could be nasty.

By closing the measure, you would reduce his ability to effectively use his sword. Nothing in combat is 100% sure anyways. Everything was dependent on who moved first, how, and whether you were quick enough to counter.

Brian Robson wrote:
Additionally, I understand that at such an early period, advanced martial knowlege tended to be limited to the knightly/noble classes. Would an unarmoured combatant (therefore assuming lower classes) on the battlefield be trained sufficiently to be confident enough to do this?

Grappling is wrestling and wrestling was a sport for the masses. Although I'm not sure if wrestling was mandated like archery was, I would figure that most boys would wrestle. As far as knowledge limitations, I quote myself from earlier in this thread:
Jonathan Blair wrote:
A wise lord would give his men the knowledge on how to defend themselves in battle, because if his peasants all died because they didn't know the pointy end of the sword from a hole in the ground, who would farm his land during peacetime?

Confidence in battle is another subject altogether.
Brian Robson wrote:
As I mentioned, I'm no WMA-ist (is that the term?), but I can't imagine any a false-edge attack being able to inflict sufficient force to be able to bludgeon through mail/gambeson. If it is doable, then please describe it as I'd be interested to know.


Hmm...a downwards krumphau against a mail-protected wrist is probably going to have enough impact to make the target drop his sword, even when executed with the false edge. Moreover, a false-edge strike to the head might not exactly be lethat but it'll be extremely distracting--protecting the head and face is a very fundamental human instinct.


Quote:
Additionally, I understand that at such an early period, advanced martial knowlege tended to be limited to the knightly/noble classes. Would an unarmoured combatant (therefore assuming lower classes) on the battlefield be trained sufficiently to be confident enough to do this?


Martial knowledge limited to the noble classes? I'd strongly doubt that. The 13th century saw a rapid growth in the wealth and population of European cities, particularly a sharp rise in the numbers and affluence of the urban middle class. Many of these middle-class merchants and artisans seem to have organized themselves into urban defense associations (i.e. town watches and militias) with some standards of drill and training in the management of arms. Some of the best town militias were quite good indeed--the Brabantines in the Battle of Bouvines (1214) managed to form a hedgehod that resisted numeroud French attacks until it was eventually overborne by the weight of numbers. Their skills might not exactly have been "advanced"--depending on your definition of the term--but certainly enough to turn them into a confident and effective battlefield presence.
Lafayette C Curtis wrote:


Hmm...a downwards krumphau against a mail-protected wrist is probably going to have enough impact to make the target drop his sword, even when executed with the false edge. Moreover, a false-edge strike to the head might not exactly be lethat but it'll be extremely distracting--protecting the head and face is a very fundamental human instinct.


I'm still struggling to understand how a false edge blow can impart a lot of force. I'm not disputing that it can be done - I just don't understand how. The mechanics seem to be that true-edge attacks use the triceps and trapeziod?? (the big triangle muscles on your back), where it seems to me that a false edge attack would have to use the biceps and shoulder muscles which are much smaller and weaker. I'm also thinking that you'd be working against gravity too, rather than with it?
I'm, also assuming that these need to be done where you have the distance and time to swing?
What I was trying to refer to is either quick, false-edge cuts done maybe after a thrust is deflected but without much of a swing behind them or draw cuts with the false edge while in-close and grappling. There's no room to swing as you or your sword-arm are held in close, but you could still manoever it so that you can do a draw cut. My re-enactment experience in these situations has shown that these draw cuts are often done with the sword behind the opponent by the false edge.

I have taken several heavy hits on the forearm/wrist from a variety of steel weapons - swords, axes, maces, pole-weapons, and can't say that I've ever dropped my weapon from them. I do think it would need to be a very heavy blow to accomplish this.


Quote:

Martial knowledge limited to the noble classes? I'd strongly doubt that. The 13th century saw a rapid growth in the wealth and population of European cities, particularly a sharp rise in the numbers and affluence of the urban middle class. Many of these middle-class merchants and artisans seem to have organized themselves into urban defense associations (i.e. town watches and militias) with some standards of drill and training in the management of arms. Some of the best town militias were quite good indeed--the Brabantines in the Battle of Bouvines (1214) managed to form a hedgehod that resisted numeroud French attacks until it was eventually overborne by the weight of numbers. Their skills might not exactly have been "advanced"--depending on your definition of the term--but certainly enough to turn them into a confident and effective battlefield presence.


I guess my view of 'advanced' is in modern-day terms anything over and above what the average infantryman learns - i.e. discipline/manoevers/weapon maintenance/using cover/basic shooting etc... So back to the 13th C, its over and above what the infantryman can do. The town watches were drilled and were learning to stand in disciplined ranks, and with pole-weapons could do quite well. But I would call this basic military training, as opposed to advanced weapons competency, as all you really need to be able to do is not run away and point your stick the right way.

Back on subject, I don't want to dispute what the WMA guys are saying on the available attacks - I'm just trying to relate what I know about the effectiveness of armour of this period, and hoping you guys can use it to help answer the original question about the I/33's usefulness in a military context.
Brian Robson wrote:
I'm still struggling to understand how a false edge blow can impart a lot of force.


Grab the pommel and lever the blade with the dominant hand as a pivot. It's cheating, I know, but quite effective. Of course, with a two-handed sword this is often as natural as breathing.


Quote:
I'm also thinking that you'd be working against gravity too, rather than with it?


Why? False-edge cuts don't always have to go upwards. They can also go downwards.


Quote:
I'm, also assuming that these need to be done where you have the distance and time to swing?
What I was trying to refer to is either quick, false-edge cuts done maybe after a thrust is deflected but without much of a swing behind them or draw cuts with the false edge while in-close and grappling.


All right. The really powerful false-edge blows do need as much room as good true-edge blows. But it would be a fallacy to say that you always need to deliver lethal power with a blow. I've seen people flinching from a whippy, nearly powerless false-edge cut to the head even though they're wearing great helms. We're not talking fencing masks here--it's really a great helm, and one significantly heavier than historical models at that. This distraction was often enough to let the other fighter gain the initiative and launch a more lethal blow.


Quote:
I have taken several heavy hits on the forearm/wrist from a variety of steel weapons - swords, axes, maces, pole-weapons, and can't say that I've ever dropped my weapon from them. I do think it would need to be a very heavy blow to accomplish this.


In what armor? I'd concede that mail reinforced with a vambrace or early gauntlet would be extremely effective in defending the wrist. On the other hand, that kind of armor was likely not available to everyone, as there were some men-at-arms who had only mail arm defenses as late as the 14th century. And not everyone has wrists as firm as yours...


Quote:
I guess my view of 'advanced' is in modern-day terms anything over and above what the average infantryman learns - i.e. discipline/manoevers/weapon maintenance/using cover/basic shooting etc... So back to the 13th C, its over and above what the infantryman can do. The town watches were drilled and were learning to stand in disciplined ranks, and with pole-weapons could do quite well. But I would call this basic military training, as opposed to advanced weapons competency, as all you really need to be able to do is not run away and point your stick the right way.


There's still a huge problem with this thesis, because I've never yet seen anybody conclusively disprove the absence of advanced martial arts instruction among the lower and middle classes. This article:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/wasters.htm

mentions several examples of martial games where the middle and lower classes had a chance to participate, and it is impossible ot rule out the possibility that they did train themselves for these things. Additionally, there's a fairly early description of London here

http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/florileg...tro01.html

describes the presence of martial games held for the purpose of military exercise, and it would seem that there were people outside the upper classes who actively participated in these games--and might have practiced extensively for them.

So...well, there's still a chance that I.33 techniques would be effective against unarmored combatants on the field of war, and that there might have been people skilled in their use who participated in such conflicts.
Randall Pleasant wrote:
Greg Coffman wrote:
There is sword and buckler and then there is I.33. Though I.33 represents the earliest sword and buckler teaching we have, it does not seem to correspond to later sword and buckler teachings.


Greg

I must strongly disagree. I find a lot of similarities between I.33 and the S&B of later masters.
Brian Hunt of ARMA Utah is currently working on an article on this subject.


Ran, I waited until I could go take another look but I think I stand behind what I said. Talhoffer is the only other copy that I own but I also looked for sword and buckler in online copies of manuscripts as well. Especially with Talhoffer, since I feel most comfortable working with it, I just don't feel like the sword and buckler teaching compares very well with I.33. I'm sure there are simularities but the only real overlap I could see was the arm wrap with the buckler.

My point is that I.33 represents one teaching of how to fight with the sword and buckler but not the only way to fight with sword and buckler. So there is a difference between talking about the virtues of fighting with sword and buckler in armoured combat and then fighting in the manner of I.33 in armoured combat.

I would not be terribly surprised to see another manual which corresponded better to I.33. However, Talhoffer doesn't seem very simular and I don't know of any other teachings which would. I look forward to reading the article from Brian Hunt.[/b]
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