Quote: |
Maybe focusing on which 1:33 techniques are most viable ? ( Trying to bring the subject back to the original question ). |
I'd like to see more discussion on this myself.
Quote: |
Maybe focusing on which 1:33 techniques are most viable ? ( Trying to bring the subject back to the original question ). |
Craig Peters wrote: | ||
I'd like to see more discussion on this myself. |
Greg Coffman wrote: |
There is sword and buckler and then there is I.33. Though I.33 represents the earliest sword and buckler teaching we have, it does not seem to correspond to later sword and buckler teachings. |
Christian Henry Tobler wrote: |
I'm now wondering if the reason we see later German sword and buckler combat stressing the arm protection aspect less has to do with armour: that is, the almost light armour afforded by later medieval doublets. Thoughts? |
Bill Grandy wrote: |
That's an interesting point, Christian, and one I've never thought of in this context. The only problem I see with this is that Talhoffer certainly shows cuts to the forearm, and ones that apparently can dismember that arm. |
Quote: |
As an example where it may be preferable to leave the arm exposed is the wechselhau from Lignitzer's third play. Folio 53r and 53v of Paulus Kal show exactly how I'm interpreting this. I have attacked, and my opponet makes a counter attack (in Kal the opponent binds against the sword, but it is possible for him to attempt to cut at the arm in my interpretation as well). As my opponent's sword enters the distance, I immediately lift my buckler to pin him against the weak of his sword as my own sword changes through underneath to attack the leg. (and if you miss the leg, you cut back upward with the short edge of the sword against his sword, as in the nebenhut play in longsword, and so forth with the rest of the play)
If I attempted the above with my buckler covering the arm, this closes off the line, and my opponent would be forced to counter in a different method. So here I believe leaving the buckler back will draw out a specific reaction. |
Quote: |
In other cases I feel it just doesn' t matter too much whether you keep the buckler forward or back, so the later traditions didn't bother. |
Christian Henry Tobler wrote: |
I thought about this too, but look closely at the illustrations - the cut is to the wrist, not the fabric covered forearm proper. If your only vulnerable spot is the hand and wrist themselves, this lessens the risk considerably. The apparently looser clothing in I.33 would make the whole arm vulnerable. |
Christian Henry Tobler wrote: |
You've really made a light come on over my head. I'm now wondering if the reason we see later German sword and buckler combat stressing the arm protection aspect less has to do with armour: that is, the almost light armour afforded by later medieval doublets. Thoughts?
Christian |
Brian Robson wrote: |
The key thing here, though is that hacking attacks against such armour must be big, hard swings to be able to bludgeon - which makes them easier to avoid. Smaller blows, draw cuts, false edge attacks etc. are totally useless. So I guess what I'm getting at is that it is more difficult fighting against an armoured opponent because your choice of effective attacks is limited, and so those attacks can be more easily dealt with.
Even on the grappling front. If I was unarmoured, I don't think I'd want to grapple with an armoured foe. Once close, all you can do with a sword is small hacking cuts or draw cuts. These would be useless against a mail armoured opponent, but lethal against an unarmoured person. You would have to be 100% certain that on closing he can't use his sword. I think the key really is to keep your distance, use your manoeverability to try to stay alive long enough for half a dozen of your mates come and jump him from behind. |
Jonathan Blair wrote: |
Why would false edge attacks be "totally useless?" There is a fendenti attack with the false edge (albeit this is controversial) as well as the sotani attack. Why teach these if they are useless? Grappling can be a very effective way to disable your opponent, even if he is armored and you are not. If you are in close, your opponent cannot bring his sword to bear against you effectively. You can then do very nasty things to him by grappling, because in the end, it's not about the sword, but about being the guy who walks away alive. |
Brian Robson wrote: |
As I mentioned, I'm no WMA-ist (is that the term?), but I can't imagine any a false-edge attack being able to inflict sufficient force to be able to bludgeon through mail/gambeson. If it is doable, then please describe it as I'd be interested to know. |
Brian Robson wrote: |
As I mentioned, I'm no WMA-ist (is that the term?), but I can't imagine any a false-edge attack being able to inflict sufficient force to be able to bludgeon through mail/gambeson. If it is doable, then please describe it as I'd be interested to know. |
Brian Robson wrote: |
I guess what I'm getting at for grappling - and probably didn't put accross very well is that an unarmoured grappler going against an armoured opponent would have to be absolutely 100% sure that his weapon is disabled/controlled as a draw-cut could be nasty. |
Brian Robson wrote: |
Additionally, I understand that at such an early period, advanced martial knowlege tended to be limited to the knightly/noble classes. Would an unarmoured combatant (therefore assuming lower classes) on the battlefield be trained sufficiently to be confident enough to do this? |
Jonathan Blair wrote: |
A wise lord would give his men the knowledge on how to defend themselves in battle, because if his peasants all died because they didn't know the pointy end of the sword from a hole in the ground, who would farm his land during peacetime? |
Brian Robson wrote: |
As I mentioned, I'm no WMA-ist (is that the term?), but I can't imagine any a false-edge attack being able to inflict sufficient force to be able to bludgeon through mail/gambeson. If it is doable, then please describe it as I'd be interested to know. |
Quote: |
Additionally, I understand that at such an early period, advanced martial knowlege tended to be limited to the knightly/noble classes. Would an unarmoured combatant (therefore assuming lower classes) on the battlefield be trained sufficiently to be confident enough to do this? |
Lafayette C Curtis wrote: |
Hmm...a downwards krumphau against a mail-protected wrist is probably going to have enough impact to make the target drop his sword, even when executed with the false edge. Moreover, a false-edge strike to the head might not exactly be lethat but it'll be extremely distracting--protecting the head and face is a very fundamental human instinct. |
Quote: |
Martial knowledge limited to the noble classes? I'd strongly doubt that. The 13th century saw a rapid growth in the wealth and population of European cities, particularly a sharp rise in the numbers and affluence of the urban middle class. Many of these middle-class merchants and artisans seem to have organized themselves into urban defense associations (i.e. town watches and militias) with some standards of drill and training in the management of arms. Some of the best town militias were quite good indeed--the Brabantines in the Battle of Bouvines (1214) managed to form a hedgehod that resisted numeroud French attacks until it was eventually overborne by the weight of numbers. Their skills might not exactly have been "advanced"--depending on your definition of the term--but certainly enough to turn them into a confident and effective battlefield presence. |
Brian Robson wrote: |
I'm still struggling to understand how a false edge blow can impart a lot of force. |
Quote: |
I'm also thinking that you'd be working against gravity too, rather than with it? |
Quote: |
I'm, also assuming that these need to be done where you have the distance and time to swing?
What I was trying to refer to is either quick, false-edge cuts done maybe after a thrust is deflected but without much of a swing behind them or draw cuts with the false edge while in-close and grappling. |
Quote: |
I have taken several heavy hits on the forearm/wrist from a variety of steel weapons - swords, axes, maces, pole-weapons, and can't say that I've ever dropped my weapon from them. I do think it would need to be a very heavy blow to accomplish this. |
Quote: |
I guess my view of 'advanced' is in modern-day terms anything over and above what the average infantryman learns - i.e. discipline/manoevers/weapon maintenance/using cover/basic shooting etc... So back to the 13th C, its over and above what the infantryman can do. The town watches were drilled and were learning to stand in disciplined ranks, and with pole-weapons could do quite well. But I would call this basic military training, as opposed to advanced weapons competency, as all you really need to be able to do is not run away and point your stick the right way. |
Randall Pleasant wrote: | ||
Greg I must strongly disagree. I find a lot of similarities between I.33 and the S&B of later masters. Brian Hunt of ARMA Utah is currently working on an article on this subject. |