Cutting through helmets -- myArmoury.com

James R.Fox · Posted: Sat 01 Nov, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject:

Sirs-I will add one last comment on this subject. Read the ARMA article "Fightbook Clues to Quality and Build of Knightly Weaponry". The author states that Some german smiths did know about mixing iron ore and carbonacious material in smelting, and Some smiths Do refer to heat treatment in salt baths.Take it for what you will I only know a few words of German, the old people stoped speaking it aarond the house in my grandfathers time

Christopher H · Posted: Sat 01 Nov, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject:

Sam M. · Posted: Mon 16 Mar, 2009 8:10 pm Post subject:

Nat Lamb · Posted: Mon 16 Mar, 2009 10:23 pm Post subject:

Bill Tsafa · Posted: Tue 17 Mar, 2009 6:55 am Post subject:

Perhaps what is not being considered here is the effects of rust on a fairly thin 22-20 gage helm.

What do you suppose is the expected life of a helm that has been through the rigors of campaigns and exposed to the elements the whole time? 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, 100 years?

I do not see an old helm as being discarded and put out of use. I see it being passed down the ranks to poorer and poorer men. At some point that helm is going to fail in battle when hit.

David Teague · Posted: Tue 17 Mar, 2009 9:34 am Post subject:

Hello All,

What's not being considered here is it is just artistic license.

Just like today's Hollywood movies with swords cutting though swords, firearms that never run out of ammo, hand grenades that explosive force is far closer to a 500 # bomb, the Maciejowksi Bible has illustrations of old testament battles with the participants wearing (the then) contemporary armour. Helmeted heads get cleaved, swords go cleanly though maille like a hot knife though butter...

it's the dramatization of a biblical tale. Artistic license. That's all.

Cheers,

DT

Christopher Lee · Posted: Tue 17 Mar, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject:

Elling Polden · Posted: Thu 19 Mar, 2009 5:41 am Post subject:

Delivering a perfect, helmet splitting blow in combat would be quite hard. Even if the enemy is distracted and does not block, the angle and distance to the target makes perfect strikes rare.

Also, in the 13th century, aiming for the less armoured neck or side of the head would be easier and more effektive.
The main development in helmets from the 12th to the 14th centuries is after all developments towards better protection for the face and sides of the head.
While face and cheek protectors where common in the earlier periods (like seen in Vendel and Sutton Ho, for instance), it seems to be less so in the 11th and 12th centuries, presumably because mail coifs replaced them.
The face-plate greathelms reintroduce face armour, but leaves the sides of the head protected only by mail. These are again replaced by the full greathelm, which gives all round protection, but has poor visibility.
This again is fixed by adding a visor.

In the open face/infantry department, kettlehats provide additional protection for the side of the head, and if you bend your head forward, the face. In the 14th century open faced bacinets, protecting everything but the face, become a common infantry choise as well.

Everyone that has tried to fight in close ranks with head hits know that the head is extremely exposed, and that going into combat without one is pretty much suecide. There is a reason helmets are the first piece of armour acquired by all soldiers.

Bill Tsafa · Posted: Thu 19 Mar, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject:

I have done a few experiments on my own SCA armor with some beater swords. On 18 gage mild steel knees (round surface) it is possible to dent the steel with a single handed sword. It is possible to even dent enough so that the joint articulation does not work properly. On 13 gage helmet, it impossible to do anything more then scratch the surface. The 13 gage helmet weights about 9.5 lbs with padding. This is something that would only be worn in a joust, not something that a person can march all day in for weeks. The typical nasal helm would have weight 2 to 3 lbs. Historical armor from what I have seen is closer to 22 to 18 gage. I seems to get thicker in the 16th century as guns become more common, but it seems that they loose the armor on the limbs and back, keeping only the breastplate and helm.

My tests with the steel sword showed approximately a 50% chance (for me) of glancing off the surface of the rounded armor. In the other 50% of test trials the sword blow made good contact and imparted all of the energy into the armor. In the case of the 18 gage knee it left deep dents. In no case was I able to penetrate the steel armor. The armor used had no rust.

From my own fighting experience I know that it is not necessary to penetrate head armor to put someone out of commission. Observe the following video. I am in blue fighting with shield. My opponents has a 9.5 lb helmet exactly like the one I tested my steel sword on made by the armorer Ascroft/Baker. I am using rattan rather then steel in the video which has a good deal of flex to absorb some of the impact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI0-ceBCxJk

I start off fighting with an experimental 2 lb sword with a balance point 6 inches below the hilt. Not feeling comfortable with it I changed back to my regular 2 lb 15 oz sword with a POB 4 inches below the hilt. I forgot to bring my calibration down with the heavier sword. My opponent did not trip and fall in that video. I brought the equivalent of about 160 lbs of force down on his head. He described after how he felt the force go through his neck, down spine and collapse his knees.

I don't know about cutting through a helmet, but you can still transfer a great deal of force through a helmet to the head. If that was a 2 - 3 lb nasal helm and I got a good shot on it with a Type X, that guy would be in Valhalla right now.

I am wondering if the images of swords cleaving through helms are based on peoples heads being crushed inside their helms from powerful blows. I can see how an artist might make that illustrative leap.

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Fri 20 Mar, 2009 12:08 am Post subject:

Interesting but one should be careful of giving someone a concussion or worse !

The helm might hold but the neck might snap !

Obviously a heavier blow given in the clip than intended and probably a bit scary until the guy got up and didn't die of head trauma 12 hours later !

As far as splitting helms is concerned historically I agree with the artistic licence theory that it didn't normally happen with a sword. Maybe a large Danish axe or a halberd/poleaxe ? But then again the blunt trauma would be more than enough without any cutting into the helm.

Douglas S · Posted: Fri 20 Mar, 2009 3:06 pm Post subject:

Douglas S · Posted: Fri 20 Mar, 2009 3:10 pm Post subject:

Bill Tsafa · Posted: Fri 20 Mar, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject:

Steven Reich · Posted: Fri 20 Mar, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject:

Elling Polden · Posted: Sun 22 Mar, 2009 2:37 pm Post subject:

Unlike SCAdians and modern martial artist, someone in a real fight would keep on hitting until the target when down instead of going "oooo damn!" and standing back if he landed a real heavy blow.

However, the thickness of historical helmet would indicate that a 2 ib helmet with the apropriate padding and mail would indicate that they WHERE sufficient to give adequate defence against sword blows. If not, they would have made them thicker. They might not have looked very pretty afterwards, but your head would be in one piece.
Compare to later period field and tournament armours; Field armours where made to stop the blow, tournament armours to stop blows repeatedly without beeing damaged.

Bill Tsafa · Posted: Sun 22 Mar, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject:

Randall Moffett · Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 12:05 am Post subject:

I think the they felt comfortable with 2lb. helmets or they would have been made thicker argument is lacking some. They did make them thicker...... way, way thicker for war. Even some helmets that are near the same in outward looks can be 2-3 lbs difference. I have seen simple ketle helmets in the 5lb plus range. I have made up a list of sallets with about 20 or so and the weight spread is fairly impressive. They can go from about 2-10 pounds, many hanging around 3.5-5.5lbs. So they did make them thicker in period. How do we know these were not the bargain, better than nothing helmets? Of course you also have so many styles of helmets, many using much less or more coverage weight as a gauge is a bit deceptive. I think cutting through a helmet like shown in some MSs would have been near impossible. You see some guys split head to waist in full armour. Unless it was foil armour I have a hard time seeing it possible. That said I think the 2lbs and lower do run a risk, though I think the weight is too deceptive to know and we'd have to look at thickness involved.

Just because we as weekend warriors feel them a burden on our heads does not mean our ancestors did. This is what they did to stay alive. They got used to wearing warm and somewhat uncomfortable armour (compared to their day to day clothing that is) for this purpose. My guess is that many SCA helmets are too heavy or hover around the higher extreme of historic weights for sure but I am sure many in period grew up with this aspect of life and therefore felt less uncomfortable about its weight. Of course SCA helmets are more or less uniform thickness as their medieval counterparts were not. I am sure many would feel they were dying if we strapped them with the loads soldiers in many armies around the world carry and had to make the distances they do without training. The soldiers would have likely as well. A great deal of carrying any weight comes from practice.

RPM

James Arlen Gillaspie · Industry Professional

A major factor involved in concussive force transferred through a helm(et) is the suspension system. The modern often blue closed cell foam used so widely in the SCA is probably the worst thing that could be used, next to styrofoam. At high impact speeds it acts too much like a solid. I used to wear an old GI pot military liner in mine, which got me in a lot of trouble when I first wore it. I received three good dents in the forehead that I thought I had blocked! They felt light. Whenever I loaned the thing out I had to warn people about counting blows. Later, when I advised people how to construct a more accurate textile suspension system for the helms I made for them, we had the same problem. They had to get used to counting blows they had a hard time feeling.

The tale is told that in the Waffen SS, a recruit would sometimes be told to stand perfectly still while a concussion grenade was put on top of his helmet and set to detonate. It is said that if he stood perfectly still, he came to no harm when it exploded. I haven't been able to verify this, but it does not seem impossible to me.

Bill Tsafa · Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 9:56 am Post subject:

Even if you take a 2 lb helmet and layer it with bubble wrap on the inside to insulate it with air, when the sword sword strikes your head, your head is going to be jolted violently. The concussion does not come from the sword or the helm striking your head, but from your brain hitting the inside of your skull in a sudden start/stop. A suspension rig or even bubble wrap is not going to stop that violent jerking action. Especially if you are being helicoptered with repeated left, right blows. A 2 lb helmet when hit is going to move 12 inches to one side, where it will meet the sword again coming in the opposite direction and be moved 12 inches to the other side like a bat hitting a ball. In those those 12 inch movements the brain acquires acceleration inside your skull and then come to a sudden stop.

With a 7 lb helmet, my head moves 1 to 2 inches to one side and then the opposing blow might move the helmet 1 to 2 inches to the other side. The helmet itself is being moved around a lot less because of its mass. That means less of a start/stop motion for the brain inside the skull. A 10 lb helmet, barely moves when struck at all with a sword.

These examples are all with a sword of course. If you strike a 2 lb helmet with a 6 foot polearm at full power, the person struck may never talk straight again. The polearm will knock the person straight to the ground because you have something with a great deal of momentum hitting something very light. Yet with the a 7 to 10 lb helmets and a half inch of foam, people in the SCA get hit with polearms in the head as a matter of routine training practice at full power.

Steven H · Posted: Mon 23 Mar, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: