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Jean Thibodeau
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 Posted: Sun 18 Apr, 2010 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Well I replied to an e-mail by Jessica and asked her to put me in her production cue.
Here are a few random comments:
A) This jacket in the default base package is a great idea and designed for a specific purpose although it can be used somewhat as light underarmour and somewhat as a period piece of clothing but it isn't meant to be historical as much as practical. It does seem that stylistically it pays tribute to period styles but is a " modern " training jacket.
B) It can be modified to be more protective for bouting ( light gambison ) or possibly look more historical to a degree.
C) My personal choice will be some moderate changes to make it more suitable for light bouting and light under armour use.
D) If people ask for a great deal of modifications then maybe it would be simpler to have Jessica make something like a true gambison or be more strictly historical: There is a point where modifications become so numerous or extensive that it would be a different product.
So there is a line below which it's customization, but still the original concept of a training jacket, and above this line it should be treated as a different project that Jessica can and should price differently if she decides to accept the commission.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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David Rowe
Location: Fairfax, VA Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sun 18 Apr, 2010 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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I will say that a significant part of our reasoning behind wearing belts is an aesthetic, rather than utilitarian purpose.
We felt that adding a belt to the jacket gave it much more the appearance of it being a martial arts uniform, as opposed to us with just the wrestling jacket.
While people might dismiss this, we felt our appearance is important; not so much for the HEMA community, but for the world at large who might be looking in. When an ordinary person off the street sees someone in their judogi, they recognize it as a martial arts uniform.
While a person might have no idea of what style of martial arts we are performing, the uniform helps people to recognize us as martial artists, and I think adds a degree of legitimacy (in the eyes of the beholder) to what we do.
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David Teague
Location: Anchorage, Alaska Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Sun 18 Apr, 2010 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| David Rowe wrote: | I will say that a significant part of our reasoning behind wearing belts is an aesthetic, rather than utilitarian purpose.
We felt that adding a belt to the jacket gave it much more the appearance of it being a martial arts uniform, as opposed to us with just the wrestling jacket.
While people might dismiss this, we felt our appearance is important; not so much for the HEMA community, but for the world at large who might be looking in. When an ordinary person off the street sees someone in their judogi, they recognize it as a martial arts uniform.
While a person might have no idea of what style of martial arts we are performing, the uniform helps people to recognize us as martial artists, and I think adds a degree of legitimacy (in the eyes of the beholder) to what we do. |
There are moves in the system where controlling the opponent by the belt is used. Endless groin strikes is one of my favorites.  Ask me to show you that move at CW 2010 
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.
Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild
"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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David Rowe
Location: Fairfax, VA Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sun 18 Apr, 2010 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There are moves in the system where controlling the opponent by the belt is used. Endless groin strikes is one of my favorites. Ask me to show you that move at CW 2010 |
David,
Yeah, belt-grabs were definitely part of the reason for our deciding to use belts.
Hey, as long as you demonstrate those endless groin strikes on Bill, I'd be happy to have you show it to me.  [/quote]
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Sun 18 Apr, 2010 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| David Rowe wrote: | | While a person might have no idea of what style of martial arts we are performing, the uniform helps people to recognize us as martial artists, and I think adds a degree of legitimacy (in the eyes of the beholder) to what we do. |
I can understand this viewpoint David, but it raises the question: why not just use a gi then? They're much cheaper than any of the garments made for our niche interest.
I think gi belts start raising questions about what colors mean in our system, etc. etc. If a soft belt is desired, I like either Jess' solution or the D ring option.
Cheers,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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David Rowe
Location: Fairfax, VA Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sun 18 Apr, 2010 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I can understand this viewpoint David, but it raises the question: why not just use a gi then? They're much cheaper than any of the garments made for our niche interest.
I think gi belts start raising questions about what colors mean in our system, etc. etc. If a soft belt is desired, I like either Jess' solution or the D ring option.
Cheers,
Christian |
Christian,
Very much looking forward to CW!
Some thoughts:
While purchasing a gi might be cheaper, I think there are two main areas in which these martial arts jackets serve us better: 1). In terms of look, they don't appear distinctly eastern to the untrained eye, as opposed to a gi. While not necessary historical, these garments do have a more "western" look to them.
2). While we are certainly a niche market, I hope that status to be merely a temporary thing. By supporting production of equipment/garments for HEMA, we will hopefully encourage more interest into the production of items for HEMA use. More items = more options.
I would prefer to use items that were designed for HEMA use, as opposed to appropriating from EMA. As I said before, I think it helps legitimize what we do in the eyes of the curious onlooker.
Of course, we are doing exactly that with the use of standard martial arts belts, but I suppose some concessions must be made. We felt that they were an easy way to standardize the uniform; we also agreed to a standard color (white) for the belt, so as to limit the amount of speculation as to what various belt colors mean.
We aren't saying that everyone should do this, but merely that we like it, and it works for us. 
And I think we are starting to get a bit off-topic; perhaps a separate thread should be made to continue this discussion?
David
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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David Rowe
Location: Fairfax, VA Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sun 18 Apr, 2010 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | Hey David,
We probably don't need another thread...no need to beat what is, after all, a personal choice to death.
Cheers!
Christian
PS. Yes, these jackets do indeed rock!!! |
But I think... Well said, good sir.
And yes, I can't wait to get mine.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sun 18 Apr, 2010 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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I really didn't want this to turn into a thread about our choice of belts (hence my friendly comment: "Get over it. ") but rather wanted to focus on Jess's jacket. I know some of this is coming from a desire to be helpful (indeed, some of it is coming from friends), but it does get a little tiring that people seem to be so quick to nitpick at things from other groups that ultimately don't really matter. As I've stated: We're happy with the belts. I never said anyone else needed to wear them.
| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | | Here's a better solution: don't wear any belt. Generally, illustrations of period wrestling don't show them, and only a technique or two even mentions them. |
And truthfully, if people don't care for belts, I think that's the best solution. There are a few techniques that imply a grasping of the jacket at the waist (not a belt), but the Revival Clothing jackets that others at VAF wear fit snugly enough that its sometimes hard to do. I personally preferred having a belt there. For example, in the video there's one where Pamela reaches over my arm and grasps the belt to throw me... that particular play comes out of the Gothaer Codex, where the illustrationd doesn't actually show a belt, but does seem to imply grasping the fabric, which really turns this into a very powerful throw, and if we can't do that, then the belt works. Then there's the part in Ott/Ringeck where we're told to sink our weight if the person grasps the back of the belt. After that, I'm unaware of any specific techniques that use a belt, so I agree: No belt is necessary. I went several years without using one at all. Still, we discussed this amongst ourselves and made the decision for our own group, and that's what we're currently doing.
To me, the belt isn't as Asian looking as some in the WMA community think. Case in point: I've had two Asian martial artists e-mail me through YouTube who said they didn't even know about medieval martial arts beforehand, but said they liked the look of the jacket and belt combo because it looked more medieval European than Asian but still looked like a martial arts gi. In the end, that's what we're going for, but as I've stated, I'm not saying anyone else needs to wear them.
So, back to my main point: Jess's jacket is awesome, and if you do medieval martial arts, I think you need one.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Michael B.
Industry Professional
Location: Seattle, WA Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Mon 19 Apr, 2010 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | As I've stated: We're happy with the belts. I never said anyone else needed to wear them.
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With that being said, I've put my name on the list to get one of these really awesome coats, and I'm wearing one belt, and one belt only.
www.facebook.com/bearmountainforge2
Michael Bergstrom
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Greg Mele
Industry Professional
Location: Chicago, IL USA Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Mon 19 Apr, 2010 12:38 am Post subject: |
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Well, also, I'd hope that people aren't just training the canonical plays but trying to understand how they manifest in variations. We do this a lot, including wrestling while wearing daggers and swords, so for us, anyway, the belts serve multiple purposes - holding weapons and providing another point of leverage for variants on the techniques. And, of course, Fiore's c.1410 and late 14th, early 15th c garments usually show belts...
Either way, I'm just grateful that folks are wearing more than t-shirts!
Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com
www.freelanceacademypress.com
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