Bloody hell... and I don't even have Brecia paid off yet...

A question for you guys at Albion about the Knecht:

Is this a messer you guys would consider more of a "two handed sword" or a "hand and a half" sword? I've been fascinated by the use of the single handed messer for some time now, but at the most recent WMAW I was introduced to the Lekuchner techniques of the langes messer by the Ochs guys (thanks Hans and Jorg!). This was a messer that was used in one hand but had a longer grip, which was often employed in binding someone's blade or arm, such as in my attached picture below (from the Codex Wallerstein). Was curious if the Knecht would be better served for a standard two hand grip.

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Hey Bill,

The Knecht is perhaps one size larger than the weapons depicted in the Wallenstein (depending on how you interpret the drawings).
I think it could be used in those techniques, but it is on the large side for exclusive single hand use. Not from weight, but because of size/length.

The Meister is smaller, but absolutely functional in the Lekuchner/Wallenstein techniques (as far as I can tell).
The latest revision of the Meister I am presently working with has been given a slightly longer tang . Not a full hand and a half (the blade is to small for that purpose), but a length that makes the pommel protrude some 2" behind the heel of the hand when gripped close to the guard. That allowes locking techniques as seen in the drawing you posted.
This length seems to be common in many manuscripts showing these techniques. The Meister followes the size of some half dozen weapons I documented in the Bayersisches Armemuseum in Ingostadt (These had their points sawed off, but you got a good idea of thir size anyway).

My personal impression of the Codex Wallenstein is that the size of the weapons are slightly exaggerated. This is a common feature in the manuscrpits. Talhoffer does the same in many of his illustrations. I think this is a way to stress what is important in the actions.

Both the Knecht and the Mesiter are based on originals I have documented, so they represent authentic types in authentic sizes. I would guess that regardless of size these weapons would have been used like shown in contemporary manuscripts, but with allowance for the variance in size.

The Knecht will weigh somewhere around 1250 (1300?) grams with a blade length of 85 cm, total of 112 cm (about).
The Meister will weigh around 850 grams with a blade of 63 cm and a total of about 79 cm.
These are still not finalized weights or measurements, but will give you an idea about the relative size/massiveness of the two wepaons.
Both are very agile for their size and weight.
This is what you can observe on originals: bold, but thin blades that are sturdy at the base.
This lends agility and stiffness.

Hope this helps.

My assessment is that the Meister would be suitable for the sort of techniques illustrated in the initial post of this thread, whereas the larger Knecht would be more for use in a modified version of Leichtenaur's long-sword techniques, i.e., primarily as a two-handed weapon. I have a Knecht on order and am very eager to try it out in some drills, although now note that it'll be sometime after the 1st of '06.

FYI'

I was in Hans' messer class at WMAW also and was impressed enough by the weapon to do some quick measurements of the blunts they were using (fist, palm, fingers etc.). These come out to a blade length of 31", grip 7 1/2", cross 7 1/2 " and the 'nail' was 2 1/2" in height.

Hey Bill,
That's cool that you got measurements. I actually ran over to Darkwood Armory's booth as soon as I could from that class to talk specifics on making a pair of aluminum wasters. These'll be Scott's prototypes, as he's never made messers before, but I have no doubt he'll pull them off admirably. I'm a huge fan of his work.

I unfortunately had to sit out during the messer class and only watch because of a pulled muscle in my shoulder (which is still giving me trouble... bad thing for a fencing teacher!). But I still got very excited just watching, particularly to see that it fits so perfectly into the large scale of the Liechtenauer tradition. It's also interesting that many of the messer plays look like they can fill in some gaps of study in longsword, and vice versa. That triple mortschlag technique was just way too cool!

BTW, Bill, it was a pleasure meeting you in person there!

Peter you mentioned messers in Ingolstadt with their points ground off. Any ideas why this would be? It brings to mind straight bladed, spatulate pointed Messers in Austrian museums. All of these were heavily corroded but I don't think sufficiently to obliterate any clip points. Do you know anything about these? Period? Distribution?

Bill,

Pleasure to meet you also. Are you going to have Scott build one with the ring type nail? Keep us posted, he may have an order for two more for me.

Well, I always thought that my first Albion would be a Squire or a Ringeck - but I guess this settels it; it's going to be a Meister.

Now, the trick is just to convince my bank..... :cry:


/Jakob