[Bill Grandy]

The other reason why I'm not totally sold on the idea of the waviness aiding draw cuts is because people keep bringing the rapier into it. There's this "common sense" knowledge that draw cuts were commonly used with rapier fencing... yet I don't know of one single source ever advising it. Every single text I've ever read on rapier combat shows outright strikes, or thrusts, but not draw cuts. If not a single fencing manual ever so much as mentions this (despite being very detailed in other forms of attack and defense), why would a person desire a blade specifically designed for this ability?

Even if we were to accept that, yes, such a blade would aid in draw cuts the way a bread knife does (and I'm trusting Jean's word on that... I've never seen a bread knife with quite the same edge geometry, even the scalloped bread knives), you still would not make a draw cut in the same manner that you do when slicing bread, where you press hard against it and move forward and backward. Any type of slice, such as often described in the Liechtenauer system against the bare hands, is a quick movement to cause enough pain and damage so that you can follow through with more deadly techniques. I can't imagine the difference between a straight edge and a wavy edge being so dissimilar as to really make a noticable effect.

Now, if someone told me that people in period believed this, whether it's true or not, then I can definately accept that.

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Bill Grandy]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Bill Grandy]

[Thomas Jason]

Just a thought...

One of the reasons that Indonesian Kers (also a thrusting weapon) have a wavy blade is to have a wider blade without extra weight.

This in turn leads to a larger wound channel which in turn means that the target bleeds out faster...

Just a thought...

[Jean Thibodeau]

With small blades like tactical folders a recurve blade is thought in general to be very aggressive cutters as they seem to bite into a draw cut. A long blade is like a succession of curved and recurved small blades one after the other and might " bite "
or tend to bite more on a draw cut than a strait edge.

True serrations are a different thing at a much smaller scale but do seem to cut well even when relatively dull.

For the big twohanders the curved blade's cutting power compared to a strait edge is probably negligible and with a rapier
a draw cut seems to not have been used or taught as something one would use or try to use as a prime, secondary or even as a distant third choice when something more effective would take priority. ( I base this on what Bill said about the absence of draw cutting being taught as an important technique but still being used if the opportunity presents itself ).

To touch on some very much earlier posts: Against pikes, cutting the heads off, even if possible, is not needed with the twohanded sword can be used to push away the pikes out of line or tangle them up. Maybe see it as the forte of the sword against the foible of the pike heads ? The leverage advantage etc .... Also in a tight formation the twohanders could still be used vertically and used in thrust like a polearm.

I think all of this was brought up in the early posts of this Topic thread but people jump in sometimes without reading all the previous posts ! So, I'm sort of deliberately repeating stuff I must have written very early on or others may have mentioned.

[Chad Arnow]

Attached are some pictures of flamberge-bladed weapons.

The first is the basket-hilt. It's from the 1995 Peter Finer catalogue. There is no full-length picture.

The last picture is three rapiers with fairly differently shaped blades.

[Felix Wang]

The issue of two handed swords and pikes is a recurring one.

I am not aware of any primary source evidence that there was ever a policy of deliberately placing rows or groups of men with two handed swords in the way of a pike block to cut the heads off of pikes. If someone knows of such a source, I would appreciate seeing it.

There are sources that talk about the use of two handed swords, and while at least one does mention that a big sword can be used to cut off the head of a pike, others (Di Grassi, and the Portuguese Montante work presented at the last WMA meeting in Dallas by Steve Hick) don't mention this usage; both of these do discuss the roles of two-hander swordsmen, but do not mention cutting holes into pike blocks. The Portuguese treatise does describe what to do when facing a man with a polearm, and cutting off the head of his weapon doesn't come into play.

Illustrations of single men with two handers at the front of pike columns do exist, but as far as I can tell, they are individual leaders, not detachments with a special role. If there are period pictures of a whole line of two-handers facing an oncoming pike block, it would be good to see it.

[Chad Arnow]

Here's another odd one. The sword has a Zweihander-style hilt, but with a curved flamberge blade. It's from the Hermitage in St. Petersburg, Russia.

[Bill Grandy]

Wow, Chad, nice find! That thing is crazy! I want one.

Now that one, to me, supports the idea of draw cuts, particularly because it is only scalloped on the edges, and not on the spine.

[Chad Arnow]

[Bill Grandy]

Looking closer at the image, it appears to not have the waves near the point... interesting...

[Giuseppe Maresca]

Really impressive... I too noticed that near the point the waves get smaller until they disappear. It's a weird one.

[Peter Johnsson]

Perhaps it is worth noting that the wavy edge is popular during a period when clothing was rather voluminous.
Perhaps the wavy edge has an advatage in cutting cloth?
This might also make sense for blades meant for civilian use, as it would have to deal with layers of cloth in folds and thick arrangements.

This is pure speculation, mind you.
I have thought to do some cutting experiments with wavy edges on layers of cloth to see if it actually makes a difference. Have not had opportunity to do so yet, however.
A wavy blade is on the list of things to do...

Personally I think wavy edges are mainly a thing of fashion, but might also provide some kind of functional bonus in certain situations.
We should not forget another factor: it is during this period that blade grinders start to get a kind of fame of their own. It might be good for business to be able to provide striking products on a competitive market.
The wavy outline is very seldom forged. I have seen one blade where the shape was forged (a Stantler two hander dated to 1615 keptin the Schweizerischen Landesmuseum). The waves on this one are slow and evenly undulating.

The typical case is a blade of hexagonal or diamond cross section that has rounded "teeth" ground away alternately from each side.

Just some rambling thoughts.

[Geoff Wood]

[William J Welch]

I have wondered if the wavy edge are not meant to be force multipliers. The forward edges would dig in before the rear edges there by forcing the materials apart, and deeper into the cutting surface of the wave.

I have never seen this idea given and it just seems obvious to me, after looking at some of the sword pics.

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Jean Henri Chandler]

[Chad Arnow]