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Gordon Frye
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 Posted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Rod;
Still, that's a BIG Horse. He looks a LOT like my half-draft, in fact, who's a pretty beefy boy, though he's "only" 16.2HH, and this one is much larger than some of the horses that many folks are trying to claim are "real" Renaissance Knightly horses. The thickness of the build is the main thing that strikes me, though. He may not be any 18HH (thank goodness!) but that is one serious War Horse, well able to carry a fully armed man, and armoured barding for himself, on the battlefield. It's interesting to note to though that asside from the arming saddle and bridle, the horse has no other acoutrements on him like breast collar, crupper or anything of that sort. Odd.
Oh, BTW, did you note this woodcut? Kind of interesting in regards to the feathers... A smaller horse, but with definite feathers.
 
Oh, and Nathan! Check out the detail of the painting of the Battle of Orsha in "Art Arms and Armour" by Held. One of the German Arquebusiers has the tip of his sword hanging out the end of his scabbard, which has obviously seen better days. Sadly none of the images I could find on the net in a hurry have any good details of this, but it's in there. Kinda cool, too...
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Rod Walker
Location: NSW, Australia. Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 230
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| Posted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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He does have feathers but that horse would be all of 14.3hh. Again, no where near a draught horse. Looks just like my Percheron cross Australian Stock Horse that I use for jousting who is also 14.3hh.
The statue is not a draught either. It may be a large, heavily built horse but it has more in common with a certain type of Spanish horse then anything else.
Cheers
Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au
"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | Hi Rick-
Thanks for the images. I was asking to see "partial scabbards" with exposed blades sticking out. I don't see the ones that you posted as being that. Are we seeing something different from one another? Help me get on the same page.
I have seen the knotted suspension all over the place. It was very common. The interesting and unusual assertion of this topic was the discussion of the sword carried with an exposed blade. That is what I'm trying to see documented.
Thanks! |
Hi Nathan!
I'm not really seeing the Gattamelata scabbard as being a partial scabbard. I think it's more than likely just a very narrow scabbard made for a very narrow blade. Compare it to the general form of scabbards shown in the Durer engraving and the Perugino painting. Both are very narrow scabbards for narrow-bladed swords, but they are definitely blades housed in full scabbards. There is a chape at the end of the knight's scabbard in the Durer engraving, and Saint Michael's scabbard is definitely dyed a reddish hue.
As for partial scabbards, I didn't find images of those during my search. That doesn't mean they didn't exist, it only means that I should keep looking. Still, I think many of the images i posted could support the argument that the Gattaelata statue depicts a narrow-bladed sword in a scabbard.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Rod Walker wrote: | He does have feathers but that horse would be all of 14.3hh. Again, no where near a draught horse. Looks just like my Percheron cross Australian Stock Horse that I use for jousting who is also 14.3hh.
The statue is not a draught either. It may be a large, heavily built horse but it has more in common with a certain type of Spanish horse then anything else. |
I'm no jouster, and not even a real expert on horses, but I agree with you, Rod. All the horses look powerful (especially Gattamelatas - look at the muscular neck and chest), but not necessarily as large as a draft. More like strong war horses, just the way they should look!
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Fay wrote: | | I'm not really seeing the Gattamelata scabbard as being a partial scabbard. |
That's why I was asking for references  I didn't see it as such, either.
| Quote: | | I think it's more than likely just a very narrow scabbard made for a very narrow blade. Compare it to the general form of scabbards shown in the Durer engraving and the Perugino painting. Both are very narrow scabbards for narrow-bladed swords, but they are definitely blades housed in full scabbards. There is a chape at the end of the knight's scabbard in the Durer engraving, and Saint Michael's scabbard is definitely dyed a reddish hue. |
Agreed.
| Quote: | | As for partial scabbards, I didn't find images of those during my search. That doesn't mean they didn't exist, it only means that I should keep looking. Still, I think many of the images i posted could support the argument that the Gattaelata statue depicts a narrow-bladed sword in a scabbard. |
There are likely some landsknecht woodcuts that depict it. I could swear I've seen such things but don't have them handy at the moment.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Greg Coffman
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| Posted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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In the myArmoury.com photo album there is a picture of a gross messer being carried in what may be a partial scabbard. I am not sure which it is. Here is the link:
http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/12664.html
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hello again!
Just as an experiment, I worked with the images of the sword from the Perugino painting of St. Michael (top left), the Durer engraving of the knight (bottom left), and the Donatello statue of Gattamelata (right) to get them in one image for comparison. I adjusted the size so they were roughly similar in scale (I know it's not exact), and I adjusted the colour. Notice that St. Michael's sword may be interpreted as bare without colour. The lines of the scabbard for such a narrow-bladed sword are quite elegant, and follow the silhouette of the blade quite closely. The same is true for the sword in the Durer engraving, but it appears that it may have an inconspicuous chape at the end. The supposed "bare" Gattamelata sword actually appears to have less of a pronounced ridge than the scabbards from the painting of St, Michael and the Durer engraving. I believe that this indicates that the Gattamelata blade is indeed depicted as being housed in an elegantly formed scabbard.
Again, I'm not saying that partial scabbards never existed, I just doubt that the equestrian statue of Gattamelata is meant to be a depiction of this.
Stay safe!
 Attachment: 82.44 KB
Scabbard comparison - Perugino's St. Michael, Durer's knight, and Donatello's Gattamelata.
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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It looks like a scabbard to me.
Take a look at its outline:
Now without the background:
And now colored in. Notice how the green portion is wider than the yellow, which indicates the scabbard is turned sideways a bit, and the tip is ever wider than it appears here.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Richard Fay
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| Posted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hello all!
| Michael Edelson wrote: |
And now colored in. Notice how the green portion is wider than the yellow, which indicates the scabbard is turned sideways a bit, and the tip is ever wider than it appears here. |
Good point, Michael. I thought I noticed the same thing. There may be some sort of funny perspective going on with either the photo of the statue, or the statue itself. The centre-line of the scabbard is definitely turned a bit away from the viewer. By the time the viewer's eye reaches the scabbard tip, it may be seeing more of a side-view than a top-view.
So, is the apparent absence of a chape such an odd feature, or did sword scabbards sometimes lack chapes? Or, is it just that the statue lacks this detail?
"I'm going to do what the warriors of old did! I'm going to recite poetry!"
Prince Andrew of Armar
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Jared Smith
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| Posted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruno Giordan wrote: | | Steve Grisetti wrote: | | All of the discussion on this statue has been about full scabbard vs. partial scabbard, and that's great because that is the basis for the thread. But, what really impresses me most about the statue is the horse. This strikes me as a marvelous representation of an immensely powerful and majestic animal! |
people who mantain that knighs were not using draft horses should regard this portrait with a certain interest: its is an heavy horse indeed, I'm not an expert but this is definitely not an arab horse. |
It looks like a mixed breed to me. I don't know how tall the man is supposed to be, but if he were 6 feet (183 cm) tall, I would say the horse would not be over 16 hands tall. The head and overly massive neck don't quite mesh as realistic as far as any mix or pure draft that I have ever seen, but it looks closer to a cross. The legs are a little slender (the detail of hair above the sesamoid is a give away that even part of the thickness is fur) for pure draft as well.
The saddle is interesting. Its probably just the lighting of the photograph, but it appears to stay put magically without a girth!
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Alberto Dainese
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| Posted: Mon 12 Feb, 2007 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruno Giordan wrote: |
Shame on the Padua's administration that keeps it under a pidgeons' rain of excrements while very unsubstantial other initiatives are publicly financed (Donatello and Gattamelata won't vote at next elections ...). |
Well, I think that Piazza del Santo is part of Vatican (as the whole Basilica). Nevertheless I agree, it's a shame whoever is guilty.
Sani!
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Merv Cannon
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| Posted: Tue 13 Feb, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: Condittiere Sword |
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Hi everyone......Well, its good to hash all this around......you always learn a lot in this forum. I may have been over confident in thinking I have "lots" of references for scabbardless-suspensions.....The Grossmesser line drawing was certinally one that was in back of my mind.....I even had a close up of it circled in my files. I have over 9 Gbs. of research and I try to sub-catagorise as much as possible but I dont have a "short Scabbards" file ! I may have also been recalling the bottomless ( worn out ) scabbards in some of Durers woodcuts. The pesants used old swords and often the ends were exposed....at lease thats how Durer drew several. I have a whole CD of his illustrations but I cant go right through them all right now and our club chief has just ordered six wasters...some by this Sunday ! I am happy to be wrong on this...its been a week for me being wrong, so one more wont hurt. 
Re the horse.....the original link to the web site in the first post makes interresting reading. The artist smashed the first horse head (in clay) and stormed out of the city because he was passed over for the Condottereri figure. He said he could have made them a better horse anyway. They (Paduans) threatened to cut his head of if he returned. They later recanted and he did more work in Padua.
Merv ....... KOLR
http://www.lionrampant.com.au/
"Then let slip the dogs of war ! "......Woof !
Last edited by Merv Cannon on Tue 13 Feb, 2007 1:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Tue 13 Feb, 2007 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| Rod Walker wrote: | It is hardly a draught horse. Note the lack of feathers on the feet, the small dainty hooves, the small well formed head with a hint of Arab blood and the fact that the horse looks to be about 15.2hh-16hh.
If anything that statue looks a lot like my 16hh Spanish horse.
I\'ll say it just one more time. They did not ride farm horses. |
Yes, owever, being not an horse expert, I have no mean of classify the horses who appear in renaissance art.
However I notice that they appear as more robust and impressive than the usual riding horses I see in my area.
They were not bad quality horses but something special, whose classification is up to specialists.
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Tue 13 Feb, 2007 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Alberto Dainese wrote: |
Well, I think that Piazza del Santo is part of Vatican (as the whole Basilica). Nevertheless I agree, it\'s a shame whoever is guilty.
Sani! |
You should know well that in Italy public money finences almost everythig, it just depends on the caprice of the public administrators.
Piazza del Santo is an artistic asset of primary importance, examples of public financing of church owned artistic assets are countless.
Sometimes our administrators prefer to finance the caprices of their electoral basis (example: the fair of that special mushroom, the art exhibition of a well connected painter etc).
Not to mention teh state of our armoru museums (almost sorrowful, wholly neglected).
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Alberto Dainese
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| Posted: Tue 13 Feb, 2007 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Bruno Giordan wrote: |
You should know well that in Italy public money finences almost everythig, it just depends on the caprice of the public administrators.
Piazza del Santo is an artistic asset of primary importance, examples of public financing of church owned artistic assets are countless.
Sometimes our administrators prefer to finance the caprices of their electoral basis (example: the fair of that special mushroom, the art exhibition of a well connected painter etc).
Not to mention teh state of our armoru museums (almost sorrowful, wholly neglected). |
I fully agree with you (expecially on last issue); I've just stated the Piazza del Santo is extraterritorial; indeed that is not common, usually churches territory don't belong to Vatican.
Sani!
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 13 Feb, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Gentlemen,
We really don't need any commentary on the performance of any government, municipal, national or otherwise in this forum. It's entirely off-topic. If you want to discuss how governments and private foundations, etc. care for arms and armour-related artifacts, please feel free to start a thread in the Off-topic forum, where such discussion belongs.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Alberto Dainese
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| Posted: Tue 27 Feb, 2007 1:55 am Post subject: |
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Hi all,
yesterday I went to Piazza del Santo to see the statue, unfortunately I couldn't take any pics but I could make a first person, 3D analysis of the sword.
In my opinion the sword is sheathed in a full scabbard; first clue: it's not discernible from pics but the blade is quite thick, much more thick it should be if bare. Second clue: the blade, and tip in particular, is quite dull. Third clue: there's a little discontinuity near the tip, about 3-4 cm. from the tip, it COULD suggest a chape of some type.
ASAP I try to post some pics to show these clues.
Sani!
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