Views of the Henry V funerary helm -- myArmoury.com

Jerry Smith · Last edited by Jerry Smith on Thu 27 Mar, 2008 9:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

Hi Folk`s
Has anybody got an idea were i might be able to source views of the Henry v froggy ?(besides going to the museum )
I`ve got the usual profile photo`s, but nothing that would give me a definitive idea of the top .
I also need info on the actual beak ,I.e. does it have an internal fold back on the top edge like later Froggy`s ?
This is my first post on this forum ,please be gentle with me Wink

Nathan M Wuorio · Posted: Tue 25 Mar, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject:

I would reccomend a good armour book, like Weapon from DK publishing. I have it and there are several good pictures of frog mouthed helms. I should probably know more about them, they're on my family's coat of arms.

Jerry Smith · Posted: Tue 25 Mar, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject:

Hi Nathan .
I have no problem with information on frogmouth helms .I just don't have any other pictures but the profiles of this particular early one .
I was interested in finding out if it has another panel in the top similar to this one of the same period .Im thinking probably not! .
But if some one had a picture of the problem area it would give me piece of mind .

Russ Thomas · Industry Professional

Jerry,

The helm does have a small rather curious plate at the top. I say curious, because it is so crude that it almost seems to have been done almost as an afterthought. Though other helms have this plate as your picture shows, this one is quite small and extremely crudely attached.
Unfortunately, I do not remember if the front top is turned back or not. However, the helmet does have an additional piece attached to the front, this is not readily apparent in your picture, but it is obvious from the other side.
If you speak or write to the picture librarian at the Abbey they can sell you prints of the helmet...... at a price!

Regards,

Russ

Rod Walker · Posted: Wed 26 Mar, 2008 4:30 am Post subject:

I saw a bunch of different views of this helm a week or so ago. Front, back, 3/4 back (showing the edge of the extra reinforcing plate on the front) and top.

For the life of me I cannot remember where I saw them. I have been going over every website I visited for the last 2 weeks and through every book I have.

If I find them I will post them here.

Jerry Smith · Posted: Wed 26 Mar, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject:

Russ,
The last resort was to contact the Museum curator .
I`ve never had much luck with these museum requests .You ask but they just ignore .....I suppose there far to busy !
I had noticed the reinforcing plate .There is a distinct line on the other profile .Quite interesting that it only comes half way on the right side and covers completely on the impact side ( by the looks of things)

Russ ,the other thing is the small plate on the top ? Maybe a repair at a later date? You also hafto remember it was mostly covered with a crest tied on through the bullet holes around the top ,sorry i should re fraise that ,The Pick holes ,after all it was the 15th century .
Rod , i wonder if Luke might have some pics .His early helms of this type isn't it ?

Rod Walker · Posted: Wed 26 Mar, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject:

Lukes is that proto frogmouth/great helm as well. I can't remember if it was based on the Henry V or the de Hauberk helm. The frogmouth that Callum has, (that used to be mine), I based off the de Hauberk helm.

They are both roughly the same period but slightly different in construction.

It is driving my absolutely nuts trying to find these other pics of the Henry V. I lent about 15 of my books out last weekend and won't get them back until next week. When they are back I'll go through them as well.

Drop Luke an email as he may have some pics.

Russ Thomas · Industry Professional

Jerry,

There are others like this that only have the reinforcing plate covering part of the front, see the Prankh helm for instance. Of course for the joust only the left side really needs to be reinforced anyway. The helm is rather heavy anyway, so they needed to cut down weight wherever possible. It is about 1cm thick on the front left , and weighs some 17lbs!
I had thought about the possibility of a repair. It seems a good possibility, especially when you see the inside of the helm and how it was done. Possibly it was a damaged helm anyway, and of no further use and was repaired just to hang over the tomb - if it ever originally hung over the tomb? As a precedent for the use of repairs and tricks like this in funeral achievements, the crest of the Black Prince helmet in Canturbury Cathedral, Kent, the cap of maintenance supporting the crest was entirely made out of tiny little scraps of leather sewn together. Possibly someone thought that they could save a bit of money by doing this. The labour was the cheap bit, not the leather. And he was dead anyway, so he was unlikely to complain! This little trick was not discovered until the replicas were made in 1952.
By the way, there is no actual evidence that it in fact was Henry V's helm, but it was however hanging there in the 1950's. There is no evidence that the sword was his either, unfortunately.
The Abbey are very protective of the helm, so it is quite doubtful that you would get to examine it. David Edge told me that it took him ages just to get permission to use the picture of it for his book! It is many years since I got to examine the helmet, but at that time only A.V.B.Norman, and Howard Blackmore had been able to examine it in living memory. Possibly others have done so since, but not that I know of.
As a little aside, 'Nick' Norman told me that when he examined the helmet he in fact couldn't resist "very unpfofessionally" putting it on. He swore that he could see the fields of France through the eye slit! Laughing Out Loud

I do hope that you can find those pictures Rod. That would be fantastic !

Regards,

Russ

Doug Strong · Posted: Thu 27 Mar, 2008 8:42 am Post subject:

Here are three views. Sorry for the washed out quality of the pictures.

Russ, I'd be interested in hearing any other info you have about it. Did you take any measurements?

I'd love people who had other pics to share.

This i part of my massive cataloging effort of surviving plate armour from the age of the transition from mail to plate. I could use any info I can get.

Jerry Smith · Posted: Thu 27 Mar, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject:

Ha Ha I was right .thank you so much Doug .
Russ ,my conclusion of the really bad patch up job on the top plate !
This is of course all subjective and only a thought .Maybe i should highlight that statement lol
The hawberk helm gives the clues away .
Same era helm ,infact i would go as far as to say modeled of the Kings helm (possibly) not having any other views of the Hawberk helm .i'm surmising its the same shape .
The manufacturer of the Hawberk helm made the facial section out of one piece of heavier materials so as to not hafto need the reinforce .Each helm also has the same series of punch holes around the bottom edge for affixing the lining .Same pattern of crest lacing holes around the top area .
The top of the Henry helm "maybe" originally had similar crest mounting knobs as the Hawberk helm .
At Henrys funeral his crest would have been still mounted on the helm .This we are of no doubt.
At some later date the crest was removed ,maybe because it was looking very tatty who knows .Maybe the helm had fallen from its mounting place at some point and the crest and its mountings damaged .Instead of repairing it it was just discarded along with the bent /damaged mounting knobs/top plate .
The helm was rehung and at this stage the top was dogedly replaced and the iron hook at the back affixed .

I have read ,The Hawberk helm is in the Armouries and a copy is at Cobham church .Any idea who made the copy ? and if it was ever published .

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

Here is a larger view of the Hawberk helm, on loan to the Royal Armouries (as is the Baybrook helm):

From our article Spotlight: The Great Helm.

I hadn't heard that a copy of the Hawberk helm existed. I'd love info on it and pictures if anyone has them.

Russ Thomas · Industry Professional

Jerry,

I do not know about a copy having been made of the Hawberk helm, but there were two great helms at Cobham church, The Hawberk and the Braybrook helm, both stylistically very similar, probably they were made in the same workshop. Some years ago when I was in the workshops at the Tower of London, they had a very impressive array of helm casts around the walls. What they used to do was, because so many items have sadly been stolen from churches in England in the last half century, much of it really early and extremely rare, so the royal Armouries made fibreglass copies of the helmets. The originals were then lent to the Royal Armouries on a of sort of permanent loan. When a fibreglass copy gets stolen, the workshops simply makes the church in question a new one ! The church is happy and the R.A. adds important items to its collection!

Doug,

I did take measurements of the Henry V helm. I made patterns directly from the original too. But unfortunately all these , and the photographs that I had were destroyed in a fire in 1995 Cry

Regards,

Russ

Doug Strong · Posted: Sat 29 Mar, 2008 10:46 am Post subject:

Russ, I'm sorry to hear about the fire. What a terrible loss! Do you have any measurements surviving for any helms?

Russ Thomas · Industry Professional

Doug,

Unfortunately, all the details of the Henry V helm were destroyed. The only details that I have now are those of the Black Prince's helm, but these were taken from a second replica that was made at the Tower in 1952-53, so I am not so certain that they are exact, but they do appear to be right.
Yeah, the fire was a bad experience. Unfortunately, it destroyed my library as well ! Cry

Regards,

Russ

Jerry Smith · Posted: Sat 29 Mar, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject:

heavens Russ what a disaster ... Cry

Loosing the info on the helm was bad enough but to loose your Library to uuuuu

Your probably right about the copy being plastic/fiberglass .The article never mentioned what it was made of .
For the life of me i cant find the article again .It was part of an essay on Cobham church i found surfing for info .
I have tried emailing the curator of the w. Abbey museum, HA .I really don't put much hope in receiving a reply .
I suppose the next one is to email Toby at the RA .and see if i can get some info on the two helms you have mentioned .
I had started on something last week but getting half way through it gave me the sneaky feeling something wasn't right and i should really try and gather more info before i went any further .
Cheers guys .

Russ Thomas · Industry Professional

Jerry,

Yes it was a blow, but I have been able to build up a reasonably good library again of about 130 books, but of course there are many more that I need / want - but that is of course the fun of collecting! Laughing Out Loud

Don't tell him, but I am extremely envious of Dougs library ! Laughing Out Loud

Making fibre glass copies would seem to be a good idea for the churches that can't protect these extremely rare items adequately. One of my great loves is Greenwich armour, and a helmet that I would have loved to have seen was the Lullingstone helmet. Probably this helmet was made for King Henry VIII , but unfortunately it was stolen in the 1950's (? ), and has never been found Cry

One question. Toby RA ? Has he moved from the Wallace? Having been without internet for so long I have missed out on so much that has happened in the last year or so.

Regards,

Russ

Jerry Smith · Posted: Sun 30 Mar, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject:

Russ .,
This one`s going to Poland with me this July (if i get it made in time ) This is the reason behind the idea of something 1400 ish and preferably english .i'm still humming and harring about maybe going a bit more definly frogmouth though .Slightly later ?
Quite a few of the jousters these days are starting to gear up for a more historical joust style and its going to include a lot mor e jousts that will allow head shots in their scoring .I.E. the need for froggies .
Jeffs h. just finished a nice new harness for Arnie k. this includes a froggie .You should go to the RA`s sword of honour site and have a look .Its really flash .I think they based it on a mid 15th century German from what i can remember .

Yup Toby`s ditched the freezing cold north for the freezing cold Leeds .

If i see the Lullington helmet in NZ ill let you know Wink

Its a hart ach to think people flog such things ..Its probably sitting in someones shed next to a pot of house paint .The person that has it now ,probably has no idea of its worth .

Russ Thomas · Industry Professional

Jerry,

The problem, as I see it, with gearing up with full tournament armour is that it cannot be used for much else. Whereas a nice Greenwich or German field harness can have the various pieces of exchange to go with it and then you have several different armours. That said, to see a couple of knights going at it in full gestech or rennen harness must be quite spectacular to see!
Thanks for the tip, I will check the RA. site out.
Hopefully, the Lullingstone helmet is still sitting around somewhere and will surface again someday - but in what condition I wonder Sad

I did some years ago make a copy of the Greenwich helmet of William Somerset, 3rd earl of Worcester. It is an armour that I have long admired. The copy was progressing nicely, and we had it in the workshops at the Tower, where we even had the original out of the case to see the two together ( I was somewhat impressed as it was surprisingly accurate, given that it was only made by following a couple of photographs). But alas, it was stolen from my workshop before it was even finished, and the police reckoned that it was probably lying at the bottom of the Thames! Cry

Having been discarded when the thieves sorted throug their ill gotten gains, which included two sabres, a paratroopers knife (that was used at Arnhem !), a talwar, a Roman galea and a copy of the Black Princes helm. But the worst thing was that they did it on my birthday, and they pee'd all over my workbench including in all the boxes with rivets etc. in them ! THANKS GUYS!!! Evil

However, all that said.......if the Lullingstone helmet does turns up again, I will willingly forgive the little toerags that stole my stuff! Laughing Out Loud

Regards,

Russ

Kel Rekuta · Posted: Mon 31 Mar, 2008 10:46 am Post subject:

Jerry Smith · Posted: Tue 01 Apr, 2008 12:38 am Post subject:

You probably right Kel .
I was only listening to half peoples conversations as we were all sat drinking around a large table in Poway rodeo Grounds in California .Infact all i really recall is there were fires burning all around us and Luke Binks climbing on my shoulders to hang all our shields up in a tree the night before the joust .O the fun of tournaments ...

I take back all i said about Museum curators ...
Christine Reynolds from the Westminster abbey museum has passed my email request on to the library so they can access the photo`s i need .At a cost of course .But hey ,I got a reply .....cool ... aint they lovely people Happy

Russ ,Fred Piraux from Belgium (International jousting league) has just got his new Gestech harness (Belgian made) he`ll be jousting in it in Seraing this May .He has quite a line up of historical jousters coming to his joust ."Hackalands tourney'
www.hackamores.tk
There is a historical division at this joust .Including head hit scoring .So there will be a few good harnesses there.