Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Did "munitions Grade" armor really exist? Reply to topic
 
Author Message
Jeremy V. Krause




PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec, 2008 10:36 am    Post subject: Did "munitions Grade" armor really exist?         Reply with quote

Hello everyone,

First, let me say that I have very little knowledge of plate. Most of my experience is with maille as I am more into the 11th-14th. C. This post is really for me, and maybe others to learn a bit.

So how common or existent was non-custom plate defenses? I am thinking of 14th. c. moving into the 1500's.

I have a, very likely, misconception that this type of more homologous chest and back plate armor may have become more common in the 17th.-18.th. C.- the era of increased shot.

What do folks think? If this post entirely to broad- feel free to focus it at your leisure.

Thanks,
Jeremy
View user's profile Send private message
Colin F.




Usergroups: None

Location: Bradford, UK
Reading list: 10 books
Posts: 134
PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec, 2008 11:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One article that I thought might help you was done by Craig Johnson back in '99. Now I am sure that his research has gone further than what he wrote here, but his findings and research are interesting.

http://www.oakeshott.org/metal.html

Two parts for you.

Quote:
This ability created some very rich armorers and also allowed for a tremendous amount of production. In preparation for the Battle of Maclodio, 1427, Milan was able to supply 4000 armors for cavalry and 2000 for infantry within just a few days.


This seems to indicate that some of this would have been made prior to the order and kept in shop, therefore, without being fitted for any specific person, this could be classed as munition grade.

Quote:
Undecorated Garniture 12.6 (a notable exception to the purchasing of raw steel to work is in Milan were the plate makers seem to have prefabbed certain elements at the finery stage and sent the armorers rough shaped elements. In fact, in one case a doctor in Milan was brought to court by the armorers on charges of buying these prefab elements, cleaning them up a bit, and undercutting their prices with inferior product. The Merchants who sat on the council found the doctor not guilty as it was good for business.)15

The vast majority of armor produced throughout the period of armor making would have to have been for "off the rack" purchase. Those who ordered a fitted suit would pay a premium.


All this help?

Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
View user's profile Send private message
Jeremy V. Krause




PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec, 2008 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Collin,

This does indeed help. I have this article but had forgotten much of it's contents. Thanks for doing the leg work.

More thoughts are welcome!

Jeremy
View user's profile Send private message
Colin F.




Usergroups: None

Location: Bradford, UK
Reading list: 10 books
Posts: 134
PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
Thanks Collin,

This does indeed help. I have this article but had forgotten much of it's contents. Thanks for doing the leg work.

More thoughts are welcome!

Jeremy


Ah, it was the magic of google that helped me!

Colin

Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
View user's profile Send private message
Allen W




Usergroups: None


Posts: 284
PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec, 2008 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know about the 14th and 15th centuries but they were abundant in Central Europe in the 16th. Most plate seems to have so much intrinsic overlap to fit a variety of personal dimensions. Now I have no personal experience with plate but it looks to me like as if it would be much easier to adjust ones arming garments to fit the plate than vice-versa especially for 15th cent. styles.
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Usergroups: None

Location: Sunny Southern California
Reading list: 5 books
Posts: 1,900
PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For sure. Off the rack armour was fairly common likely for much of the medieval period but at least in the 14th and 15th for armour in general. Looking into trade records the amounts of armour going to general sale is fairly common. As most nobles had custom freedoms in England on such things port and brokage books will say armour for Lord Talbot etc if it is actually fitted to avoid the tolls and customs (Soton brokage and portage books, London has them as well) . Most say simply they are for general sale and are taxed. Some even say they are for markets.

Now the question is how much work was done locally to get them to fit? There is very slight notice of this practice so conclusively hard to say. Clearly as was in the article above 4,000 suits being sold in bulk like that are off the rack so to speak. Edward II buys loads of armour off the rack, bascinets, gaunts, COPs. At one point before one of his Scot campaigns he buys 500 of each in London for a group that has not yet been arrayed. Clearly not tailored armour. (London Letter Books)

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Manning




Usergroups: 
Donating Members

Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 309
PostPosted: Mon 15 Dec, 2008 9:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
Thanks Collin,

This does indeed help. I have this article but had forgotten much of it's contents. Thanks for doing the leg work.

More thoughts are welcome!

Jeremy

I think that the 15,000 pieces which Frederick the Lombard assembled in 1295 (check the link- its there) gives a good idea of how big the armour trade could be by the end of the 13th century.

Pfaffenbichler mentions that even the rich often had trouble visiting their favourite armourers to be fitted personally. We have extant letters nagging a patron to come and get his greaves fitted, and references in accounts to buying cloth and making it into a tight-fitting suit to send to an armourer to give him an idea of the client's shape.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
James R.Fox




Usergroups: 
Donating Members

Location: Youngstowm,Ohio
Posts: 253
PostPosted: Mon 15 Dec, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sirs-Since it was possible to buy second-hand armour,and to rent armour, I think alot of plate was fitted by altering the straps and increasing or decreasing the padding under it.Also if you look at illustrations of the period,1400s on ( have a number from Barbara Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror" done in the early 1400's to illustrate Froissart's "Chronicles") the general light armed already wore sallet,gorget,back and breast only. The arm and leg pieces were not worn, except by the wealthy.,and these were the pieces most in need of hand fitting, I would think. Also, the mail gussets and skirts worn to protect armpits and groin could have links added or removed by any competent snith using pre-tempered links.
Ja68ms
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Did "munitions Grade" armor really exist?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



All contents © Copyright 2003-2013 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum