[quote="Jean Henri Chandler"]

Elling Polden wrote:

Looks pretty good, you guys would adapt to I.33 or Marozzo style sword and buckler very quickly. I think it's funny how the people in the background just ignore you until you get kind of close to one, and even then they just seem to sort of raise and eyebrow. You scandinavians are so laconic ;)

We have done quite a bit of I.33. Some of it goes into the sparring, other techniques are just to slow to do at this speed. (like most of the covers.) We separate hands and buckler to much, but the openings are generally to brief to exploit propperly, without dropping your own guard to much.
the I.33 1st ward blow is a personal favorite of mine... I must use it half a dozen times in the 30 sec clip. (the first one, me on the left.) It doesn't hit THAT often, but because of the range, and the fact that you step in behind your won sword, it is pretty safe, so you get a lot of tries. :)

As to the laconic nature of the crowd, they are all fighters as well, and used to having blunt steel flying around their ears at speed. At the point where the videos are taken, we have been at it for a while, as well.
The guys actually paying attention are sitting next to the cameraman ;)

I really want to jump in here and just scream. But I won't.
I have been in the SCA for 20 years. I have done Kendo. I have done full contact Kick boxing. I have a 7th Dan in Shoto Kan Karate and Sho Dan in Judo. I have done my share of live steel fights and some of them sober! :D
This thread has been reduced down to who's group is better and who is more accurate.
Simple answer.
None!
I am 54 years old and up until 5 years ago, I was still in combat. Too darn old now.

All fighting styles have value. All styles teaches us us things we would not normally know about combat.
SCA Combat is full speed and full power. It has rules to allow us to get up and go to work the next day.
They have Horse to Horse combat now, though I have not seen this yet. Haven't been to a tourney in 5 years.
If you really want to know how real combat goes, join the Army. Shoot somebody, get shot at!
Sword combat? Be real.
If we did real full speed, full contact, steel on unarmoured body, we'd be in sad shape.
Each style put us just a little bit closer to how it was back then. We may never know how it really went, mostly because we can't just run around with sharpened blades and start fighting somebody. (They did that ya know?)

Today all be can expect is a glimsp of what it might have been in days of yore.
Think about it.

...and be good to each other.

Fully agreed.

The important thing is to be aware what you are doing, and its shortcomings.
And, in the end of the day, its about doing something you feel is worthwhile.
Everything else is an added bonus.

Excellent response!
I have used "rap" shots to the leg to great effect. Not because it was considered a legal blow, but because it damn well hurt!

I'm gonna agree with Hugh here. Even if the wrap would be ineffective against an armoured foe, it would certainly be useful to draw cut to the back of the leg, buttocks, spine, or neck of an unarmoured or lightly armoured opponent. It only takes a small amount of force to make a devastating cut to such a foe, and a severed hamstring would instantly end the fight...

SCA wrap shots do not look anything like a draw cut to me, let alone a coup de jarnac. Maybe I'm missing something...

J

I can't really add much here beyond what has been said (except I think your Halfsword and the SCA article would go nicely here Hugh.)

As for early fighting styles Hurstwic does as good a job as I have seen at trying to figure them out though conjecture:

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manu...hnique.htm

The wrap shot always seemed really silly to me, until my friend came over to do cutting excersises. It never occured to me to try it, precisely because I thought it to be an SCA construct, an I has said as much on several occasions.

So we set up a milk jug, and he asked me how well wraps cut. I told him I had no clue. My friend, Russ, has been fighting for about 13 years, and he's a really excellent fighter and a joy to watch. He stepped up, threw a perfect wrap, and sliced cleanly (no splash) through the milk jug. I was pleasantly suprised, but as anyone who cuts will tell you, mulk jugs are easy.

Next we buy up a 2 liter soda bottle, which is much more resiliant. You really have to be properly aligned, and generate much more power to get through bottle. if you put in a halfhearted blow, the bottle will just bounce right off the stand.

He cut through the soda bottle; he did knock it over, but he cut clean through it.

So we put up a gatorade bottle.These are made from the same resilient material as a soda bottle, but thicker. These area royal pain (at least for a hack like me). Russ grit his teeth and gave it a good stout throw. It bounced. He tried again, it bounced again. There are limits to everything.

Getting back to the combat validity of the wrap, most wraps (in my limited experience) are thrown to the back of the leg, around the shield. I'd say against plate, or maile, you'd be wasting your effort. Maile is proof against most cuts, and thought the wrap can be thrown with suprisingly good force, it is not a power shot. At least not based on our completely unscientific test ;) .

Against a gambeson, I wouldn't want to be the guy in the gambeson, but it might stop the blow. Anything less and I think you'd lose your leg.

Hello everyone,

I think it's pretty clear that there historic analogues to some forms of what SCA fighters call wrap shots. The Sturzhau, or Plunging Stroke, that Hugh cites is one of them.

Where there might be a difference is in the general range these are used at. Now, I'm aware that 'wrap shot' covers considerable ground in the repertoire of SCA techniques, so I'll confine my remarks to one type that I've seen: two fighters bearing very large shields stand toe to toe and wrap over the shield to hit the back of the head or shoulders. Can this hit hard - sure -- very. The problem I see is that it might appear to be more effective than it might be in a battle, largely because of the restrictions on striking with the shield. While true grappling is unlikely in such a scenario, one could certainly use the relatively large shield at such range, were such restrictions removed. (Let me further note that I think it's a damn fine idea to restrict these!...talk about having your clock cleaned!!)

If you look at the Sturzhau, you'll see it's never used at such close range. It is however used in a tactical manner that somewhat mirrors the SCA tactic - the idea is still to get around the shield.

All the best,

Christian

Let me add that in the SCA, you are allowed to shield strike your opponents shield, just not their bodies. So if your opponent is buttoned up behind his shield in a closed stance, you can make hard shield to shield contact. You may also use your shield to hook your opponent's and shift it to make an opening...

I thought of a major reason why you don't necessarily see much large scale group sparring in many HEMA groups. In a lot of cases, it's not just a matter of wanting to only practice duels, but rather lacking sufficient members to have such scale battles. It's relatively easy to find a bunch of people to get together for a reasonably large scale SCA battle. I would often get together with between 6 and 12 of my friends, of whom only one was actually in the SCA, and have SCA style fights. On the other hand, few people want to seriously persue historic combat as a martial art. Most don't want to put in the effort required to do it. Many are bored to tears about basic things like footwork, guards, the sixteen cuts, guard transitions, and the like, even though they represent the foundation of the art. I know that many of the individual ARMA study groups out there are not comprised of more than 3 to 4 members. This makes effective large scale melees difficult at the best of times. If more people were truly interested in historic European martial arts, I imagine you'd see more large scale battles being fought.

I think you're absolutely right Craig, and I hope this changes. In an odd way this reminds me of the Windows/Mac arguement.

If there are WMA gatherings large enough to have some good skirmishes, I would love to go.

Quote:

Most don't want to put in the effort required to do it. Many are bored to tears about basic things like footwork, guards, the sixteen cuts, guard transitions, and the like, even though they represent the foundation of the art.

You're right on about that. I wonder if this was the case historically. Were there more scholastic groups or individuals, who would have been the target audience of schools and books? Were there those who tought them frivolous? Do we have any records of thier opinions? Or did they get themselves killed for thier ignorance before they could write them down :lol:

I know that there was planty of interschool trashtalking, was there anyone who rejected the schools altogether?