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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Aug, 2007 9:21 pm    Post subject: Request for messer pictures         Reply with quote

So I'm commissioning a custom messer from John Lundemo. The piece I want is based off of those seen in the Paulus Kal fechtbuch (I've wanted one like those for years!). I've given John some drawings of mine and scans from the Paulus Kal messer section. I've also given him links to all of the messers from the albums section of this site for inspiration. John had said that if I have any more pictures that it wouldn't hurt to have more sources, so I've been hunting.

If anyone has other pictures, please feel free to post them. Antiques, historically inspired modern reproductions, or period images are all welcome.



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A messer from Paulus Kal's treatise

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--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Aug, 2007 9:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For starters, here are the ones I've already sent John:

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1524.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/4141.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1256.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1258.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/5618.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/5617.html


Also, for inspiration, I sent him a link to this gorgeous Peter Johnson piece:

http://www.olofsgillet.org/marsch/images/_MG_1733.jpg


As well as this really cool one from Arma Bohemia:

http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/epees/EP29v.jpg

http://www.armabohemia.cz/imgnew/epees/epees/EP29v2.jpg

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--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Thu 23 Aug, 2007 9:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Bill,

Did you send the ones from Talhoffer 1459:
http://base.kb.dk/pls/hsk_web/hsk_vis.side?p_...p_lang=eng

Or the ones from Lechückner:
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00002184/image...p;seite=11

Or Codex Wallerstein:
http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/66.jpg

Or Gladiatoria:
http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/Gladiatoria/113.jpg

Dürer has some, too, but I only have that in a PDF so I can't link to it.

Regards,
Hugh
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Aug, 2007 9:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Bill -

Have a look at This Topic that makes the same request.

Peter Johnsson's repro is, by far, my favorite. If I were to have the opportunity for a custom sword at this point, it would be that sword of Peter's. Stunning.


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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 2:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Bill,

I almost forgot: there's an obscure copy of Talhoffer's Ambraser Codex that has an extra plate or two in it, and one of the plates is a buckler and Messer scene. I'll attach the picture here.



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Hugh
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Stephane Rabier




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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 4:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
I really like Manfred Pany's messers: http://www.manfred-pany.de/index.php?title=lu...13_big.jpg
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Tomasz Nowak




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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 4:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

hihi, Stephane, the Messer made by Manfred is mine ;-) I have researched the topic for some years and was allowed by a few collectors to mesaure lange Messer in their collections. And then I asked Manfred to make one for me.

Bill, what I think is crucial, when you want to use your Messer for fencing according to Lecküchner is a quite long grip (mine is about 20 cm) that is not obstructed by a guard, as in Peters Messer (which I would rather call a falchion). You need the grip length for quite a few techniques to bind the opponent´s blade or arm.

Overall length of the weapon should be somewhere between 80 and 90 cm - most originals I have senn are about of this size, the Grosse Messer from the 1490 on not taken into account.

Cheers,
Tomasz

Tomasz Nowak
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Mick Czerep




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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 4:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My Talhoffer 1459 inspired sharp:









Sorry for quality
Cheers
Mick

Sordes ocurrit
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 12:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mick Czerep-
who made your sword?

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, guys! This is excellent. Keep 'em coming. Happy

Hugh,
Yes, I'd actually sent him a variety of fechtbuch images, so I did go through those sources, but I appreciate it nonetheless.

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Have a look at This Topic that makes the same request.


I'd already done so. Happy In fact, I'd sent John that very picture as an inspiration image for the hilt, which I'd found in that thread. The link to the PJ piece from my post above is a different picture of that same sword.

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mick Czerep wrote:
My Talhoffer 1459 inspired sharp:


Very nice, Mick! It really does capture the look of the 1459 images. I'm seconding Nathan's request to know the maker!

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Allen Andrews




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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 3:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I saved a number of images when I started thinking about having Ollin make a messer for me. Several of the images I found have already been shown. Here are some others I found.


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Allen Andrews




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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 4:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The third image, which I found called a "bauernwehr", had those cool little scallops in the top near the point, so I decided my messer would have those. Attached is the latest photo of my messer in progress from Ollin. Obviously it has a ways to go, but the folks from Ollin have been great about keeping me up to date, and I am really looking forward to the finished sword. I know since it deviates from historical images it may not be some folks cup of tea, but in the end I really only have to satisfy one collector Happy


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[ Download ]

" I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood. "

Faramir son of Denethor

Words to live by. (Yes, I know he's not a real person)
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 4:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill-

I know I posted a photo of modern work, myself, but I would caution you away from making a new sword off of an existing modern-made sword. If you're looking at something even historically plausible, it's probably best not base a new creation off of another's interpretation. Of course, this isn't to say that many of the modern-made items are not well-researched (I'm certain many are). It must be said, though, that every creation will have concessions built into it and it would be a shame to have new concessions piled on top of the existing ones.

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Sam Salvati




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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It will be interesting and FUN to see this blade shape up in person by John's amazing hands.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 6:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Bill-

I know I posted a photo of modern work, myself, but I would caution you away from making a new sword off of an existing modern-made sword. If you're looking at something even historically plausible, it's probably best not base a new creation off of another's interpretation. Of course, this isn't to say that many of the modern-made items are not well-researched (I'm certain many are). It must be said, though, that every creation will have concessions built into it and it would be a shame to have new concessions piled on top of the existing ones.


Hey Nathan,
I absolutely agree. Which is why I've mainly given John photos of antiques, as well as period artwork (though that's more of a back up). However, part of what I'd like to see on this thread is how other people have interpreted historical messers, and if there are any images that I think would be especially useful for inspiration, I'll forward them along to John. If not, then I at least get to see some eye candy. Happy

Unfortunately I have been having trouble finding good photos of antique messers besides the ones on this site. Most of my books don't have much, and neither does my local library. Searching online turns up very little, sadly.

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--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's another. Just a phone. No details, though.


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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 7:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Here's another. Just a phone. No details, though.


Ooo! That's a really neat one I hadn't seen before! Interesting how it doesn't appear to have the characteristic rivets in the grip.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This one comes from Hhermann Historica.

Quote:
A long German knife

1st half of the 16th century
Slightly curved blade with long, widened, double-edged point, at the reverse base a struck pi-mark, the straight quillons with button finials and obverse knuckle guard, the tang (somewhat bent) with three holes. A cleaned and conserved excavation find with good basic substance and preserved over its entire length. Length 104.5 cm.
Typical Landsknecht arm from the time of the German Peasants' Wars which was worn without scabbard. Compare H.Seitz, Blankwaffen I, fig. 262.


The caption, above, refers to Seitz. I was unable to find the reference. Attached, however, is another Seitz page with an illustration of messers. (Note, Bill, the one with the accentuated curve.. interesting curvature, eh?)



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Langes Messer

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Langes Messer

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HeribertSeitz-036.jpg
Blankwaffen, Seitz, figure 125

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 24 Aug, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another from Hhermann Historica with a German caption.

Quote:
Große Bauernwehr,

deutsch, 16./17.Jhdt. Gerade Rückenklinge, die Oberkante der Spitze nachgeschliffen. Kleine Parierstange mit seitlichem Knebel. Gelochte Angel. Länge 84 cm.



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Große Bauernwehr

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Große Bauernwehr

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