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Hugh Knight
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 Posted: Thu 13 Sep, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Benjamin H. Abbott wrote: | | Yes, the kinetic energy is about right, though an extremely heavy bow shooting heavy arrows at close range would have quite a bit more. However, kinetic energy may not be the only thing that matters. For example, a heavier arrow would have more momentum. Ideally, you want to get as close to the real thing as you can. |
I don't know how much that would change things, but a heavier arrow would be slower, too.
| Quote: | The arrowhead bothers much more, however. Look at this Royal Armouries page for some an overview of medieval arrowhead types:
https://www.royalarmouries.org/extsite/view.jsp?sectionId=3006
As you can see, none of these arrowheads, with the possible exception of type 5, looks anything like that modern field point. |
Actually, I think several of those are functionally the same as his field points (NB: Always excluding a test agaisnt plate--there's I'd agree with you *completely*). The salient point is that the bodkin point has a narrow point that can slip between links.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | It would deffinatly seem like a foot soldier wearing good mail over a 10+ layer jack (on the torso and hard parts of the arms) would be and absolute bugger for an archer to take down. |
I wouldn't be so sure about that. As far as I can tell, arrows with cutting edges were far more common than those without. |
I would be sure of that because the historical record tells us it's true. The historical records contains *numerous* references (tons and tons of references--it's overwhelming when you start looking for it) to the efficacy of armor over arrows. Since we're talking about a combination of padding and mail, let me point you to just a few selections from the Age of Mail (so all the folks in these references would have been wearing a padded Aketon under a mail Hauberk):
This is from The Murder of Charles the Good by Galbert of Bruges- 1127
"And there were many others who on the first and subsequent days of the siege had gone in for the sake of gain and money; among those was a fiery young fighter named Benkin, expert and swift in shooting arrows. He kept going around the walls in the fighting, running here and there, and though he was only one he seemed like more because from inside the walls he inflicted so many wounds and never stopped. And when he was aiming at the besiegers, his drawing on the bow was identified by everyone because he would either cause grave injury to the unarmed or put flight those who were armed, whom his shots stupefied and stunned, even if they did not wound."
Galbert of Bruges on the seige of Bruges (1127-1128)[attack on the gate of the town, protected by archers and infantry]: "By the special grace of God no one died in this multitude which was entering." and "I could not begin to describe the crowd of those who were hit and wounded." and "...as to those wearing an armor, they were exempted from wounds but not from bruises.."
Odo of Douil concerning the ill-fated second crusade (mid-12th century): "During this engagement the King lost his small but renowned royal guard; keeping a stout heart, however, he nimbly and bravely scaled a rock by making use of some tree roots which God had provided for his safety. The enemy climbed after, in order to capture him, and the more distant rabble shot arrows at him. But by the will of God his armor protected him from the arrows, and to keep from be captured he defended the crag with his bloody sword.."
From Joinville (mid 13th century), referring to the day following his being wounded in five places and his horse in fifteen by Saracen arrows: "I got up, threw a quilted tunic over my back, clapped a steel cap on my head, and shouted out to our sergeants: 'by Saint Nicholas, they shall not stay here!'. My knights gathered round me, all wounded as they were, and we drove the Saracen sergeants away from our own machines and back toward a great body of mounted Turks who had stationed themselves quite close to the ones we had taken from them. I sent to the king for help, for neither I nor my knights could put on our hauberks because of the wounds we had received." It seems the padded jackets were enough protection in this emergency, and that they could have fared even better against the enemy had they been able to wear their hauberks.
Note that bodkin-point arrows probably weren't in use in these battles, or not heavily so. When people started using bodkin-point arrows then people started to add plate to their harnesses. Broadheads continued to be used, of course, but against horses and lightly-armed troops. Bodkin points couldn't generally penetrate plate but they could penetrate the mail between the plates and so were still of use against men at arms if used in vast enough numbers (not that they killed many, you understand, but the occasional wound would have been disheartening to say the least).
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Benjamin H. Abbott
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| Posted: Thu 13 Sep, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Actually, number 5 looks a lot like a field point! |
Yeah, maybe. It's hard to tell for sure. However, none of the replica points in The Great Warbow is even close. They all have points and edges. Most arrows in medieval artwork have clear edges. I even recall a 17th-century source complaining about how everyone used arrows with edges. He argued that because arrows turn in flight, a round head would achieve superior penetration.
I'm not arguing that more accurate arrowheads would necessarily do better against the mail. They might well do worse. In either case, I think the results would be more meaningful. Note that Mark Stretton blew through the mail he tested with various types of arrows. His quarrel-type bodkin (as he calls it) did the best. Of course, he didn't use any padding and I don't know how good the mail was.
If only we could get the good archers and the good armor into a single test!
| Quote: | | The historical records contains *numerous* references (tons and tons of references--it's overwhelming when you start looking for it) to the efficacy of armor over arrows. |
Well, yes and no. Plate armor always beats arrows, but mail has a mixed record. I wasn't trying to get into that argument. I question drawing conclusions from how a field point does against cloth armor.
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Gabriel Lebec
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 13 Sep, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Michael,
Wonderful tests, thanks for sharing. Physical testing is worth so much more than sheer speculation (though debatably not more than historical evidence, considering how many assumptions have to be made with modern tests). I found it especially educational how important edge sharpness was relative to point acuity in thrusting tests against these jacks.
My primary interest (and sole cutting experience) is in nihonto, though I appreciate arms and armour of many nationalities. Unfortunately, modern pop culture so unfairly underrates western arms and armour and so excessively exalts the capabilities of nihonto, that in conversation with non-enthusiasts I routinely have to stress the opposite.
Perhaps this routine emphasis had narrowed the gap in purpose and design between the two in my mind, because I was mildly surprised at just how much more efficient the katana was in your cutting tests. Naturally that was what it was built for and you mention at least one of the katana's obvious drawbacks (reach), but it still served as a pleasant and reasonable reaffirmation of the Japanese sword's more usually exaggerated cutting ability. 
Cheers,
-Gabriel L.
EDIT: PS. Proofing my post, I'm finding all of this truly accidental alliteration that I'm getting a kick out of - "unfairly underrates," "excessively exalts," "reasonable reaffirmation," and of course, "accidental alliteration" (OK, so that last was deliberate  ).
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Michael, this may well be the most comprehensive educational Thread that I have yet read! OK, some sad poetry on my part. 
The detail on the link size with quarter comparisons on the mail, detail of damage to links, gambeson, jack, swords used, detail photo of sword points with numerical reference, polearm, bow and arrows used in testing, all this and more!
This work you've created in such minute detail is just absolutely astounding  So much so, that I am troubled to find the words to merit enough of a post to be adequately acceptable to the compliments that you deserve!
Fabulously Outstanding Michael
Magnificently Brilliant 
Thank You So Very Much!
Bob
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 12:38 am Post subject: |
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You're very welcome!
But don't thank me...I'm just some guy with a camera and some swords. Thank Julio and Tomasz (Matuls). Without them, there would be no tests.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Felix R.
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 1:45 am Post subject: |
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Hello Michael,
I ddin´t find this answer yet or perhaps I just missed it.
To what amount were the shrp swords edges damaged by cutting and thrusting on and into maille?
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Risto Rautiainen
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Great tests! One eye opener was the fact that with mail having that diameter of rings you only need to pop one ring and your'e doing some heavy damage when using a thrust oriented long sword. Wicked!
One question though. How much does that katana weigh? And what kind of katana would you describe it to be? My understanding is that there is still quite a lot of variation in the crossections and whatnots of katanas from different era. Ie. some older stuff could be quite thick and stout compared to the more recent stuff used for cutting practice (thin crossection->easier cutting. Still, it's a beast.
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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | Chad,
Actually, this was the first time I have cut with a Japanese sword in more than a year, and prior to that in the last three years I've only cut a few times with them. I am far more comfortable cutting with longswords...in fact the katana felt awkward. I used to cut with Japanese swords exclusively, but that was years ago, and that experience has translated directly to longswords.
What I said previously is that Japanese swords cut better than longswords do. There's really no way around this. I much prefer longswords, but the katana is a cutting beast and there's no denying it.
Also, I was not the only one performing the cutting tests. I had students present at the tests that tried to cut as well, though no one else could penetrate the jack with a cut. They were all able to achieve the same result with thrusts, however.
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Michael,
Thanks for your answers. When you have a second, could you answer my last question in that post (about whether solid rings were damaged in the mail)?
Thanks!
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: |
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I have stabbed my 15 layer jack with a sharp dagger many times and have never penetrated it; I have even stabbed myself in the jack at demos with a shape dagger. I wonder was your linen washed? Looks like the material is still starched and stiff. Historical references call for soft linen because it is the best at having give to take the blow. I also wonder if the pell was a factor; it could move but the human body has give and can move. I also wonder if the small sample vs a whole garment makes a difference; we know it dies with maille. The energy is dispersed over a whole maille shirt when hit my guess is the same is true with a jack.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Michael;
I wonder how a very broad but very sharp point like the one on the Tritonia performs against the fabric armour: Specifically tip cuts which I would guess would be very effective. Because of the width of the tip a thrust might be less effective ?
By the way, would a lot of your test cuts qualify as tip cuts or at least cuts with the last 6" to 8" of blade or were some or all cuts closer to the CoP ? ( Chopping cut and/or draw cut ? With the Katana I would imagine draw cuts to a degree ?)
With maille the broad tip of the Tritonia would be ineffective in the thrust, I think, but in the cut it is a heavy sword that might pop the odd link or two but mostly would be good for transmitting blunt trauma.
As suggested earlier a sword need not cut maille to be effective and I would compare a sword against maille in effect to a single flanged mace i.e. when a sword can't cut it can work as a narrow bludgeon and narrow wooden warclubs probably influenced the design of the first swords.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Christopher B
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: |
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A thought just occurred to me.
Michael, can you get your hands on a good Falchion?
That is about as optimized towards the cut (or hack) as you can get, and would pretty much put to rest the issue of cutting through maille.
I wouldn't worry to much about the arrow tests. As you said, you don't have access to the historical equivalents. Be proud of the sword tests. Those are the best I have ever seen. I have full confidence that you or someone else will eventually get around to testing longbows (and maybe even crossbows). It's just too easy to look at someone else's testing and point out the flaws. It's a different matter altogether to actually set up a test yourself.
As far as I'm concerned, your tests are quite good. Sure there is room for improvement (can you stick some armor on a watermelon? ), but I found the results quite educational.
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James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Chuck and I have tested our jacks against period arrows loosed from an 80 pound bow. We tried broadheads, swallowtail, needle bodkins, and regular bodkin points. Chucks jack is 25 layers of linen and mine is 15 layers with maille under it.
We used hay bails as a rest and loosed from 20 and 15 yards.
Only the bodkin points would go in the others bounced off the jacks. The bodkin point did not penatrate Chuck's jack and it tip barely came tough mine, maybe 1mm, and did no damage to the maille under it.
Images of the bodkins sticking in the jacks and the tiny holes it made on the outside:
I also loosed a few arrows on a 16g breastplate that is unfinished at a demo last year; it had no backing just siting on a little hill. The breast plate swayed a little when hit and got dings but a dead center hit shattered my arrow and bent the arrow head. This was at about 30 yards with an 80 pound bow.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
Last edited by James Barker on Fri 14 Sep, 2007 8:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Hi all,
A lot of questions...but I'll try my best.
| Quote: | | To what amount were the shrp swords edges damaged by cutting and thrusting on and into maille? |
There was very little damage to the edge by cutting the mail..small nicks. A typical Albion collector would be horrified.
As for the thrusting, there was some damage to the point of the Talhoffer where the maille shaved a tiny bit of metal, but it only took seconds to repair using a fine stone and a few more seconds to even out the finish with a scotch brite pad. I am very sensitive about the appearance of my swords but thankfully I can repair most minor damage to any Albion.
| Quote: | | How much does that katana weigh? And what kind of katana would you describe it to be? My understanding is that there is still quite a lot of variation in the crossections and whatnots of katanas from different era. Ie. some older stuff could be quite thick and stout compared to the more recent stuff used for cutting practice (thin crossection->easier cutting. Still, it's a beast. |
This katana is a WWII era gendaito...forged from tamehagane or oroshigane, folded, water quenched, etc. It has a suguha hamon with nioi and ko-itame hada. As for cross section, it is quite a beast. I forgot exactly what it weighes, but it's a bit over 2lbs. It's nagasa is 26" (27 with habaki) and it is quite thick and even though it tapers considerably to the kissaki it is about 1/4" or slightly more at the tip. This is no delicate modern competition cutter...it's one of the heaviest katana I've ever seen (real ones....I've seen heavier production kats), though of course that's not saying much since katana tend to be light.
| Quote: | | Thanks for your answers. When you have a second, could you answer my last question in that post (about whether solid rings were damaged in the mail)? |
Sorry I missed the question. As far as I could tell, only the poleaxe damaged the solid links to any great extent, but it is possible that the arrows that penetrated damaged some (I can't be sure). The solid rings are definitely the stronger of the two. No matter how good your riveting job is, it's still a weak point.
| Quote: | | I have stabbed my 15 layer jack with a sharp dagger many times and have never penetrated it; I have even stabbed myself in the jack at demos with a shape dagger. I wonder was your linen washed? Looks like the material is still starched and stiff. Historical references call for soft linen because it is the best at having give to take the blow. I also wonder if the pell was a factor; it could move but the human body has give and can move. I also wonder if the small sample vs a whole garment makes a difference; we know it dies with maille. The energy is dispersed over a whole maille shirt when hit my guess is the same is true with a jack. |
I realize it's tempting, if you're a fan of certain defenses, to try to find flaws in a test that exposes their weakneses. Certainly my test has many flaws, but to answer your question, there is no way, none whatsoever, that washing the linen would have made the slightest bit of difference. I don't know if it was washed, I did not wash it, but you would have to ask Tomasz what he does before sewing. It was certainly not starched...the linen was very soft. The swords penetrated the material with such ease (in the thrusts), especially the acutely pointed swords, that even 30% more strength would not have made a difference. Going from 20 layers to 30 layers hardly made a difference. If washing linen makes it 30% stronger I'm going to buy a laundromat.
As for give, as a martial artist, I am very confident in saying that in most thrusts, the human body has a lot less give than my pell, which is covered in two layers of pool noodles. As for the cuts, the pell was free swinging, so it had a lot more give than a person would. Also, neither maille nor a jack would disperse the energy of a cut over a large area...if they did, they would be very effective at dealing with blunt trauma, which neither of them is.
| Quote: |
I wonder how a very broad but very sharp point like the one on the Tritonia performs against the fabric armour: Specifically tip cuts which I would guess would be very effective. Because of the width of the tip a thrust might be less effective ? |
As the Atrim, with a sharp, narrow yet still spatulate point was stopped by the 30 layer jack, I would say the Tritonia's point would have little effect on the textile armor. I also think the Tritonia would cut right through even a 30 layer jack. We'll know soon enough!
| Quote: | | By the way, would a lot of your test cuts qualify as tip cuts or at least cuts with the last 6" to 8" of blade or were some or all cuts closer to the CoP ? ( Chopping cut and/or draw cut ? With the Katana I would imagine draw cuts to a degree ?) |
All of my cuts are draw cuts to a degree. You can't defeat textile armor without draw cuts. All cuts with the longswords were at or slightly above (closer to the point) the CoP. All katana cuts were with the last 8" of the blade, closer to the tip. Basically, all swords were used the way each sword is supposed to be used.
Whew! I hope that covers everything!
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| James Barker wrote: | Chuck and I have tested our jacks against period arrows loosed from an 80 pound bow. We tried broadheads, swallowtail, needle bodkins, and regular bodkin points. Chucks jack is 25 layers of linen and mine is 15 layers with maille under it.
We used hay bails as a rest and loosed from 20 and 15 yards.
Only the bodkin points would go in the others bounced off the jacks. The bodkin point did not penatrate Chuck's jack and it tip barely came tough mine, maybe 1mm, and did no damage to the maille under it.
I also loosed a few arrows on a 16g breastplate that is unfinished at a demo last year; it had no backing just siting on a little hill. The breast plate swayed a little when hit and got dings but a dead center hit shattered my arrow and bent the arrow head. This was at about 30 yards with an 80 pound bow. |
Thanks for sharing that!
That sounds right. My arrows just bounced off the 10 layer sample. Your arrows were much better than mine and the results are about the same.
It's interesting that the broadheads didn't do anything...were they sharp? How sharp?
Also, do you know how heavy your arrows were? I'd like to figure out which of the two bows produced more power.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Christopher B wrote: | A thought just occurred to me.
Michael, can you get your hands on a good Falchion?
That is about as optimized towards the cut (or hack) as you can get, and would pretty much put to rest the issue of cutting through maille.
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A friend is getting an Albion Knecht, but he won't let me use it against maille. I would bet good money that it could not cut though maille (not even the poleaxe cut through the maille!) but I bet it will do just as well as the katana against the jack...maybe better, if it was sharp enough.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Edelson wrote: | It's interesting that the broadheads didn't do anything...were they sharp? How sharp?
Also, do you know how heavy your arrows were? I'd like to figure out which of the two bows produced more power. |
We used Historic Enterprises arrow heads; they are about the same weight as their historical counterparts. The broadheads were not sharpened they were just like the historical ones forged to an edge. A recurve or pully bow generates more power than a longbow (ours are ash); I think the big difference in the tests are the arrows being graphite or wood.
Might be time to try a few stab and cut tests myself. While the ordnances say they protect a man from cuts from a sword they say nothing about thrusts. Though we do have a passage from the Paston Letters about a doublet of fence. John Paston is wearing one in court and a guy from the other side tried to stab him in the back and the doublet turned the blade; I don't recall how many layers it was.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Hugh Knight"] | Michael Edelson wrote: | I just can't win.
The first time I did the tests, people said historical mail was better than what I was using, now it's the opposite. |
No, you can win, you just have to educate people about what it means. People have grown up being fed nonsense by supposed experts (some of them professional historians) about what medieval weapons did and how they were used, and they have that information "stuck" into their heads. Swords cut, and people used swords to cut at people in mail, therefore swords must have cut through mail. That's how people think. Unfortunately, that syllogism, like many, is flawed because its assumptions are flawed: In this case, the assumption that the only way for a sword to have effect is by cutting.
Exactly that, Hugh. Until now I was sure that the sword can cut mail simply because i read that on a number of web pages and even books...
Now I saw this test and my first taught was: "This mail must be stronger then historical. The sword should get through it.". Thank you people for making things clear to me...
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Michael Edelson
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: |
Exactly that, Hugh. Until now I was sure that the sword can cut mail simply because i read that on a number of web pages and even books...
Now I saw this test and my first taught was: "This mail must be stronger then historical. The sword should get through it.". Thank you people for making things clear to me... |
I'm not sure if you're aware, but I couldn't cut through the crappy maille either. Maille is very tough stuff.
New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com
Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Fri 14 Sep, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: |
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I saw that only after... That would really confuse me before I read all this...
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