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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Original Thorpe Falchion and Making a Custom Reproduction Reply to topic
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Jun, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Now that I see Dan's enhanced photo, I think I recognize the "beast".


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Wed 11 Jun, 2008 2:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank-you so much...

I'm going to call this week and see if he can't take some close up high res photos for me... For some reason, yahoo messenger hasn;t been working for the UK... I had to use my cell phone to call Scottland this morning to talk to Thomas Y for 30 min, not looking forward to the bill... I need the $ for the swords instead!

Maybe there will be some secret engraving on there....
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 8:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have just received and email from Alan west. Alan West was kind enough to send 19 individual emails each with its own high resolution photo of the original Thorpe Falchion The detail is amazing. I wish I could post the pictures but I am at work and I will need to photoshop them down to 150K for posting on myArmoury. The pictures Alan is sending are very high resolution mega pixel images... The pommel is so clear now, and the detail of the engraving is amazing... you can even see the etching around the edge of the pommel...
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 8:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Artman wrote:
I have just received and email from Alan west. Alan West was kind enough to send 19 individual emails each with its own high resolution photo of the original Thorpe Falchion The detail is amazing. I wish I could post the pictures but I am at work and I will need to photoshop them down to 150K for posting on myArmoury. The pictures Alan is sending are very high resolution mega pixel images... The pommel is so clear now, and the detail of the engraving is amazing... you can even see the etching around the edge of the pommel...


Can't wait to see them! Great work, and special thanks to Alan West!

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 8:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not only are the images clear, the coolest part is that the image is a dragon on the pommel, and the surrounding engraving is very detailed.... I'm at work and this week is going to be busy, but I'll try to get the images up as soon as possible. I'll forward the original emails to Chrstian Fletcher and to whoever else can handle 3 MB images via email.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 9:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Artman wrote:
Not only are the images clear, the coolest part is that the image is a dragon on the pommel


So...not an opera-singing whale? Oh, well....

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 9:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm trying to get thru all 19 photos while at work, but It is taking me a while... Alan has sent every angle, every detailed view you can imagine... some pictures are over 6MB... So let me know if you cannot handle those. I am thankful he took the time to send 19 individual emails... Each with its own beautiful photo... I cannot get over the detail on the first 5 images... I have to keep moving at work... There is nothing left to imagine, everything you ever wanted to know about the original is here....

The problem is that to duplicate the original, you may need to cast the pommel in Bronze....

Did you guys see that one photo earlier in this thread? It looked like solid bronze... no engraving of course... ideas?
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 11:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With such great information it'd be a shame to compromise on materials. You might want to check with a local university art program. They'll probably have somebody who has either worked in bronze or knows somebody who has. It'd be worth the commission to get a nice lost-wax bronze pommel (maybe with cast critters instead of engraved).

This is going to be a wonderful, one-of-a-kind piece!

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is a beautiful pattern engraved all around the outer egde of the pommel... I had no idea it was going to be this detailed....
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Al Muckart




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 12:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Artman wrote:

The problem is that to duplicate the original, you may need to cast the pommel in Bronze....


That shouldn't be all that hard to get done, check your local area for foundries.

There are at least two places where I live that can do small/single runs of bronze casting. Admittedly that's in New Zealand, so it's not exactly local to you, but if you *really* want cast bronze and can't find anywhere closer we can work something out Happy

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Al.
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 12:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sounds good.

I wonder how it ended up in the bottom of the river? I wonder if someone dropped it while crossing the river and who last owned it? I wonder if it was used in battle and how many people owned it before it was lost... I wonder how special it was to its original owner and its last owner...
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 6:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have to run and meet some girl... but here is a VERY compressed example. I had to set the JPEG quality to 2!! just to get it at 148K... So te originals are much better...

Wait until I post the short 'ricasso' area ... there is soemthing none of us have seen before... the fuller curves in... it is something we haven't seen before....



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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 6:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The over compressed image quality when limited to 150K is not too god, but it gives an idea. I'll sned the originals to all those who requested as soon as I get caught up...

Unbelievable, I can't even crop down half of these images and still use a compression setting of ZERO quality, and I can't get many to fit under 150K.....
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 7:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One more, I already told her I'd be 30 min late Wink


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Al Muckart




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 7:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting. Looks like traces of enamel or something in the engraving on that last photo you posted.
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Al.
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 10:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some more... I had to severely crop.

Check out the curve on the short fuller....

These look a lot less detailed on the originals photos due to the compression and having to crop the heck out of them. I will forward the original those to who requested shortly.... they are 3-6 MB emails each...

The detail is literally wiped off with having to pick 0-1 quality level on photoshop....

The blade length will be the same as the original 31.75" I've taken the liberty of going to 31.75" since 31 3/4" is an easy number and the original is rusted, worn, and probably sharpened a lot over the previous years (The original blade length currently measures 31.6").

The original looks closer to 'Quatrefoils' than crosses to me... The edges are clearly rounded... The original photos look so much better...



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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 10:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have to agree, there seems like some sort of red inlay within the engravings....
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jun, 2008 11:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I need help figuring out the fullers... On the pommel, there is a dragon on the one side, and another weird monster on the other. I'm trying to figure out how the fullers go according to which side. One fuller is straight (with the weird monster side) along the false edge. There is a short fuller that ends in a curve, but I think that is on the other side along the false egde in the 'ricasso' section. I have to read Sean's article and put this all together since the Ollin guys want to get going on the blade... I have to say I find the wider fullers on the Vassal more attractive... going to be hard to stay completely accurate... hmmmm....
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 5:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Artman wrote:
I need help figuring out the fullers... On the pommel, there is a dragon on the one side, and another weird monster on the other. I'm trying to figure out how the fullers go according to which side. One fuller is straight (with the weird monster side) along the false edge. There is a short fuller that ends in a curve, but I think that is on the other side along the false egde in the 'ricasso' section. I have to read Sean's article and put this all together since the Ollin guys want to get going on the blade... I have to say I find the wider fullers on the Vassal more attractive... going to be hard to stay completely accurate... hmmmm....


If one looks at the pommel and the engravings they do seem a little wigglywagelly ( If that is a word ) and this still looks aesthetically pleasing in a true period sword but for your sword you have to decide on it being made to exactly reproduce the good and the bad ( asymmetries ) displayed in period swords ? Today we tend to see these things in a modern made sword as flaws or sloppy work !

One option is to reproduce the period sword but go for the clean look of modern work ?

When period authenticity is pushed to the Nth degree things like not making it better than the period one in look or even material qualities is an issue: One might even want the steel to be of poor quality if the period one was of poor quality.

To me this is making a completely faithful reproduction of museum quality of what the sword would have looked like as new.

The other option is to make the best sword one can make " NOW " using the design faithfully but with modern symmetry and geometric perfection as the objective, also making the sword the highest quality as far as materials are concerned.

Either choice is exactly that a design choice that should be communicated clearly to the maker as one would be disappointed with the results if wanting one and getting the other. Wink

If there are mid-ground compromises between the two extremes they also need to be spelled out.

So, bottom line to me: You first have to define to yourself what your objective is going to be before you can make it clear to the maker. As far as the fullers are concerned I would decide on having made what will give you the most satisfaction.

It's still useful to remember that we are in the 21 century and that we really can't get an " as new " 14th century sword without some level of compromise: The trick is to decide how much and what aspects to prioritize.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 6:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I hope everybody will see this thread and realize how important it is. This is one of the best known surviving swords and one of the least published. To have such detailed photos in a public forum is incredibly rare.

Among other things, the photos remind us of the degree to which our machine-age expectations often overpower the realities of hand-made goods.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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