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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Original Thorpe Falchion and Making a Custom Reproduction Reply to topic
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 9:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would agree that you can never replicate the original 100%, and there is no need to replicate flaws... There is also some degree of interpretability due to the age and wear of the sword. That being said, we don't know exactly what the sword was like new, so that is the fun in artistic interpretation, we have some room for improvement per se...

1) The engravings on the side of the pommel can be replicated 100%, the pattern is clear and easily reproducible.

2) The false edge was sharpened on the original, I assume this means only along the final 9 and 3/4" of the curved tip.

3) No reason to make a blade thin like that, not to mention the original is so worn

4) The dragon and the monster can be more detailed, there can be some artistic licence there as well.

5) I'd be curious to choose the width of the fuller between that of the original andthat of the vassal... We can sketch it out and see... The curve on that one short fuller is a must, that is a very nice and original detail.

By the way, I have to post a picture of another falchion in one of my books with a very cool design near the start of the curved tip on the false edge (looks like a curled cut-out) ... If the original is worn, how do we know it might also not have had it... I'll post the image from the book and let me know what you think.

Remember the forum member who just had Ollin do a MESSER recently, and he added the serrations? Well, I'll show you the image of this other falchion and see what you think....
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 9:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is there any way to change the title of this thread? It would be nice if it was renamed to something like Original Thorpe Falchion and Making a Custom Reproduction (or something like that, is this possible?)
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Dan Dickinson




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris all you have to do is click the little E button in the upper right hand corner of your first post in this thread and then change the topic title.....it should change the thread title for you.
Dan
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From Sean's earlier post, I've put it here so that it can easily be referrenced by those following the thread:

"Alan E. West, Curator of Archaeology for Norfolk Museums and Archaeology Service, has generously provided the following additional information about the Thorpe Falchion. I've added inch and pound conversions in parentheses.

Measurements and Specifications of Original:
Weight: 904g (1.98 pounds)
Overall length: 956mm (37.6")
Blade length: 803mm Blade (31.6")
Blade width: 48mm (1.8") at hilt
Max blade width: 56mm (2.2") at 225mm (8.8") from tip
Blade thickness: 2.5mm (.09") max thickness
Guard width: 196mm (7.7")
Guard thickness: 9mm (.35") at blade
Grip length: 100mm (3.9")
Pommel Width: 148mm (1.8")
Pommel Length: 44mm (1.7")
Point of Balance: 243mm (9.6") from end of pommel

Blade notes: Single fuller of 1.5-2mm (.05"-.07") width runs 5mm (.19") parallel to back of blade on one side of the blade only. False edge appears to have same bevel as true edge.

Mr. West noted that the grip is missing and the blade edge shows "numerous notches," while the back of the blade is in better condition. He said the pommel is brass with engraved images of animals and monsters. As for provenance, West said the falchion was dredged from the River Yare at Thorpe St. Andrew in 1833 and has been in the collection of the Norwich Museum (now Norwich Castle Museum) since that time."


Last edited by Chris Artman on Wed 18 Jun, 2008 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dan Dickinson




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 10:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Is it possible that it was only 2.5mm thick? I would think it is to thin for a sword, especially single edged sword...



Actually I just heard back from Alan, after i requested confirmation of the thickness measurements....and it turns out it starts out about 5 mm by the cross and tapers to about 2.25 mm near the tip.....so 2.5 mm is about the minimum thickness...not the maximum.
Dan
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Michael S. Rivet




PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 11:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anybody have the balance point?
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 11:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is on page 2, I copied it from Sean Flynt's original research provided by Alan... see page 2... But with all of the wear and age of that sword, isn't hard to say what the original properties of that sword are?
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Dan Dickinson




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adding Sean's stats up has us with a POB of 3.65 from the cross.
Dan
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Now that folks are revisiting my five-year-old (!) falchion review, I want to officially retract my characterization of falchions as "relatively heavy." That's a common misperception, and one I have dropped since publishing the review. Peter Johnsson--the source of so much great information and good sense--wrote this in a 2004 post:

This is something to take note of regarding the falchion family as well: they are not generally the heavy choppers often made out to be. Those I have seen and handled were light and thin in the blade. There is surely some blade presence, but not more than can be expected on any typical chopping/cutting sword. Nor is their weight much greater than double edged swords with similar blade length. There is a difference in mass distribution, but not so much as one might assume from blade profile. As the blades grow wider, they also grow thinner.

That insight deserves repeating here, both to guide the reproduction of the Thorpe falchion and as a corrective to my over-generalization.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Forgive my hyperventilation, but I'm just very excited about what's happening here. Thanks to this site we're seeing a collector, manufacturer and curator (not to mention more than a thousand readers at all levels of a&a education) in orbit around an important sword with the goal of understanding it well enough to recreate it. It's a perfect myArmoury.com moment, in my view. If we can publish a formal review of the resulting recreation, the circle will be complete! Big Grin
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
Forgive my hyperventilation, but I'm just very excited about what's happening here. Thanks to this site we're seeing a collector, manufacturer and curator (not to mention more than a thousand readers at all levels of a&a education) in orbit around an important sword with the goal of understanding it well enough to recreate it. It's a perfect myArmoury.com moment, in my view. If we can publish a formal review of the resulting recreation, the circle will be complete! Big Grin


I agree that this is a project to follow the progress of over the period of time it will take to make as well as the history of design decisions that will follow. Big Grin Cool

The Albion Vassal is a good one to refer to as to handling/presence/balance even if the attempt is being made to make a close representation of a specific falchion because, as mentioned in early posts on this Topic, Peter Johnsson based it on actual measurements of many falchions so although a specific sword could be an outlier the odds are that this one being made was typical of the type or class but with it's own character.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Dickinson wrote:
Luka Borscak wrote:
Is it possible that it was only 2.5mm thick? I would think it is to thin for a sword, especially single edged sword...



Actually I just heard back from Alan, after i requested confirmation of the thickness measurements....and it turns out it starts out about 5 mm by the cross and tapers to about 2.25 mm near the tip.....so 2.5 mm is about the minimum thickness...not the maximum.
Dan


Well, that certainly sounds better. Happy Thank you.
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 2:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm anxious to get home to post a picture of the image of another falchion that has a curl (wave-like) cut out on the false edge, near the peak of the max width... very, very cool... I might have to make an arguement that the original is worn in this area, and how do we know for sure it didn't have this interesting cut-out Wink It is so cool that I'm going to have a hard time not incorporating it... I'll put up the picture and grab your feedback... will be curious for your opinions...

(I'm also anxious to get home, because there is a Brescia Spadona out for delivery... )

Type: Package
Status: Delivered
Delivered On: 06/18/2008

can't wait to get home!!)


Last edited by Chris Artman on Wed 18 Jun, 2008 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 3:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the main goal here is to approximate the original Thorpe Falchion when it was new: who is to say exactly how thick or thin the original is due to all of the loss of mass over the years?? Personally, I'd like to have something that errs on being robust than thin...
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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Wed 18 Jun, 2008 10:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a falchion from the Metropolitan Museum with some very nice features:

I really like the curl and the small adjacent serration...



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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Jun, 2008 4:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Artman wrote:
Here is a falchion from the Metropolitan Museum with some very nice features:

I really like the curl and the small adjacent serration...


What's the dating of that falchion? I believe it's likely later than the Thorpe, which means that extra blade stuff may be more appropriate for a later period than for the Thorpe's.

Happy

ChadA

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Chris Artman




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PostPosted: Thu 19 Jun, 2008 8:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

13th century Wink

Okay, okay, its 15th century, but it is so nice...
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Danny Grigg




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PostPosted: Thu 19 Jun, 2008 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad

The pic of that falchion is from Stone's "A Glossary of the construction...."


The full description:
"Figure 276. Falchion, German, 15th century. Metropolitan Museum."

Does anyone know if this Falchion is still on display at the Met?
If so anyone got some good pics of it and maybe some more information about it?


Chris any chance you can post some more pics of the Thorpe Falchion showing the entire sword as I've yet to see a good quality colour photo of it.

Thanks

Danny
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 19 Jun, 2008 5:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Danny Grigg wrote:
Chad

The pic of that falchion is from Stone's "A Glossary of the construction...."


The full description:
"Figure 276. Falchion, German, 15th century. Metropolitan Museum."

Does anyone know if this Falchion is still on display at the Met?
If so anyone got some good pics of it and maybe some more information about it?


Good to know. Thanks! I just quickly went through my nearly 500 photos from the Met last year and didn't see it. I tried to get one of everything, though some didn't turn out. I don't remember seeing it when I was there, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. Happy

Happy

ChadA

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Dan Dickinson




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PostPosted: Thu 19 Jun, 2008 6:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Danny Grigg wrote:


Chris any chance you can post some more pics of the Thorpe Falchion showing the entire sword as I've yet to see a good quality colour photo of it.

Thanks

Danny


Danny, I'm afraid I'm not Chris, but here are a couple of pics that Alan took for me and I have forwarded on to Chris.
They show both sides, illustrating the long fuller on one side and the short ricasso fuller on the other, both with inward turning fuller terminations.
Hope these help,
Dan



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Side with short ricasso fuller [ Download ]

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Side with long fuller [ Download ]
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