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Hendrik De Coster




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Location: Belgium
Posts: 115
PostPosted: Fri 14 Aug, 2009 8:38 am    Post subject: is this helmet correct?         Reply with quote

hey everybody, a friend of me is a templar archer reanacting the period 1125-1307
she was looking for a helmet that was both fit for a fighter as for an archer
i told her about this helmet i found with marek, my normal armourer and she liked it
still i'm not that educated about those periods so i can't tell her wether this helmet is correct or not
here are some pictures of the helmet



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helm.jpg


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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Fri 14 Aug, 2009 8:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not 100 % sure if it's correct but I sure like the way it looks. Wink Cool

It does seem close to helms in period artwork but then the artwork being all that we have as a reference and lacking any surviving ones coming down to us ( I don't think there are any know very early great helms still in existence ? ) it is difficult to say if the details are " right " but it does seem like a very interesting interpretation of the very early great helms.

Oh, looking at the pic ? Is the face plate a " visor " held in place by a leather strap ? Interesting interpretation though I'm not sure about this ?

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Magali Heuvelmans




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Location: Postel
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Fri 14 Aug, 2009 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this Hendrik Wink

Yes, the visor is held in place with a leather strap. That's why I like it so much.
I've been searching for a helmet for quite some time, and the only thing people tell me is that the archers in our period probably used spangenhelmets (sorry if this is not the correct english term). I tried one and the noseprotection piece made my vision crosseyed.
This helmet would be a solution for me as I can wear the helmet without the visor whilst shooting and with the visor when we're marching, so the people won't know there's a girl in the middle of all the Templars. Happy

The responses from my group were indeed that it's probably some sort of interpretation, because they couldn't find historic pictures of this model.

So, the question is: is it realistic enough to buy it? I really like the look of it and the multifunctionality.

Thanks for all your answers!

http://www.milites-templi.eu
http://www.cranenburgh.nl
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Reinier van Noort




PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2009 12:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am definitely not an expert, but from looking around on the almighty web, and in some books, I gathered that helmets with faceplates (like the one above) fit well in the first 100 years or so of the period indicated above (1125-1307). If you look at the illustrations in for instance the Maciejowski bible, however, you can see that around the time that was made (~1250), this type of helmet had already evolved to include a neckplate and completely enclose the head (I think Edge and Paddock date this evolution to ~1220, but I am not sure it was them).
Furthermore, from the sources I looked at (Maciejowski bible, Codex Manesse), I would say this type of helmet was only used by knights. Regular fighters seem to wear openfaced helmets more often. This would be even more true for archers! What you can also see in the Maciejowski bible, however, are conical helmets without nose-protector. Perhaps this would suit you better?

Perhaps this image helps:

http://www.nederlandsepagancommunity.nl/noord...elmets.jpg

Also; I don't know anything about the way the visor is attached, but I do like the look, especially if the visor can be removed and reattached!

PS Perhaps these articles from De Orde der Noorderwind can help you somewhat.
http://northernwind.arandoir.com/main.php?ind...orum_id=27

School voor Historische Schermkunsten

www.bruchius.com
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Magali Heuvelmans




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Location: Postel
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2009 2:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks a lot!

I know archers and lower class fighters didn't use those fancy helmets, but it's such a nice one Happy. Maybe I found it one a battlefield and reused it, can I get away with that? Templars took a vow of poverty, wasn't reusing then the intelligent thing to do? (still searching for reason to buy it Razz)

http://www.milites-templi.eu
http://www.cranenburgh.nl
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Jorge Santos




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Location: Portugal
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2009 3:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Hendrick.....!!!!!!!!!!!!! greetings from Portugal !!....... As for your question let me say that ,first i´ts not correct to call that an Helm.... that piece is a "soussepan"..a head protector.....one of the first one´s ...after that they developed in many shapes and decorations.......The front plate was the first improvement....when they found more protection was needed for the face.......later models received a back plate protection too....and that was the beginning of the Helms!!!!...later ,both plates were part of the helm.....as one piece...not simply atatched .....and there you got the helm....." Sir " penbrige helm is the better and ancient example we know............ By other side...i´ts not appropriated to an archer!!!...by the simple fact that an archer needs to have a clear sigth vision...!!!! and the plate would be a big problem to him!!!.... anyway the archers always were in the back of the army´s....not in the front...!!!!..so...protections were minimum that way he could have full agility and freedom of moves...... a well trained archer could released more than 15 arrows per minute!!!!!!! can you imagine that!!!!!!....now multiplies that for 300 or 400 archers!!!!! and imagine the clouds of arrows falling into the enemies lines.!!!!!! .......Terrifying!!!!!!!!!...whenever an archer falls alive in the enemies hands they cut him the two fingers so he could never uses a bow again!!!!!!........ cheers to you!.......Jorge Santos
jorge santos
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Magali Heuvelmans




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Location: Postel
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2009 5:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you very much for the explanations and sources.

Hm the overall opinion is, if I recall, that it's correct enough, though not really for an archer.


Well, should I buy it? Can I wear the pan part on a battlefield (trying to represent a believable archer)? As that's the way I'll probably wear it, 99,9% of the time.

Thanks for all your help, untill yesterday, most of the advises on helmets were quite insufficient or contradictory.

http://www.milites-templi.eu
http://www.cranenburgh.nl
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R D Moore




PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2009 7:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Magali, it's the one you want so buy it. It is historically accurate that arms and armor were picked up off the battlefield and stripped from fallen warriors. This equipment was expensive then, too, so it was "recycled". If you feel ill at ease then don't wear the face plate while re-enacting. That is a good looking "soussepan" and faceplate. Have fun!
"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2009 11:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've never seen any examples in art with a strapped-on faceplate. On top of that, I don't know of any surviving helm of this type (with faceplate attached or strapped on).

Some might call it plausible, but I don't know if I'd go that far, but that's just my opinion.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Jorge Santos




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Location: Portugal
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2009 3:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear magali.....i´m shure that it will look very nice on you.....so go ahead and buy it,!!!!!..but never use the front plate when acting... the piece is from cent. x ..xl..and it´s true that in those ages weapons and protections were very expensive ...and warriors d'ont trhow away anything just because it was old fashioned....in fact, pieces were passed from father to son and used in different époques while they last...... it d'ont surprise me if a knigth in the xlll using a xll cent sword or helm....in the case of the sword's they use to change the guard and pommel according to the style of the epoque and keeping the blade....the most expensive part of the sword.....so as you see.... there's no reason for not satisfy your wish.....greetings!!!!!! Jorge Santos
jorge santos
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Roger Hooper




PostPosted: Sat 15 Aug, 2009 5:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've never heard of a helm of that design with a removable face plate. Take a look at this early great helm with nonremovable face plate from the Mercenary Tailor - http://www.merctailor.com/catalog/product_inf...ucts_id=63 -

There are cheaper versions available - http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-83-transitional-helmet.aspx

It isn't really the type of helmet an archer would use, but like you said, you can create a set of circumstances where your character could find one.
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Lafayette C Curtis




PostPosted: Sun 23 Aug, 2009 1:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For an archer in that period, I'd strongly recommend a kettle hat with a narrow brim. The brim isn't all that bothersome, especially when using shorter draws (to the chest tor to the chin as opposed to a long draw to the ear).
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Johan S. Moen




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PostPosted: Sun 23 Aug, 2009 4:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Honestly, that helm looks odd to me. As others have mentioned, there's the removable faceplate which is dubious at best. I can't really think of any reason why you would need a removable faceplate either. A mounted man who used a visored helm could easily afford another helm without faceplate in case he wanted to have better vision when fighting on the ground.

The curved shape on the bottom and top of the faceplate also looks odd. There are pictures where the faceplate is curved that way at the top, but it doesn't really quite compare with this helm. The rolled edges all around the visor are a curiosity too, and the eye slits look a tad big.

I'll just add that I too believe it to be very improbable that an archer would use a helm like this. Helms like this are designed for mounted combat, but limit vision enough to be unpractical on the ground, let alone for shooting with any degree of accuracy. For an archer, get a kettle hat or just go without a helm altogether.


Johan Schubert Moen
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Daniel Sullivan




PostPosted: Sun 23 Aug, 2009 10:44 am    Post subject: Helmet         Reply with quote

Have never seen an example of a helmet of this type with a removable plate to protect the face. Seems very unlikely that such a thing existed as they have not appeared in any period artwork; at least not to my knowledge. The crosses in lower part of the face do appear on many great helms of the time, They were used in conjunction with a toggle and chain system to help retain the piece in battle. In the case of your example, they seem to be purely decorative.

Due to the restricted vision, a helmet of this kind would probably never be used by an archer. Suggest a war hat with a small brim, as stated in another post.

The Medieval Archer by Bradbury (Boydell Press 1985) has many period illustrations of archers in a surprisingly wide variety of gear; ranging from simple cloth hats to full armour.

Regardless of the historical bit, whatever you choose to wear or do or wear, have fun!

Regards,
Dan
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Sun 23 Aug, 2009 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I still like the look of it, and if it was in one piece, I think the general look of it is O.K. if one doesn't nitpick the details.

The removable face plate is an imaginative design idea but totally undocumented historically.

As far as an archer is concerned a kettle hat of some sort seems like a more practical helm although one could also use a cervelière with or without a coif or maille standard.

At a later period an open faced Sallet or a visored one might be suitable.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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