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Forum Index > Makers and Manufacturers Talk > Early Partizan Spear project for Jean Thibodeau Reply to topic
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Carl W.




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Oct, 2009 9:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well done, the whole thing top to bottom. Big congratulations to you both, & thanks very much for sharing!

Is any info/detail about the "rivets" (including bottom) interesting?

ps. Jean, I think you should donate it for another raffle :-)
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Scott Kowalski




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Oct, 2009 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix R. wrote:

Well Scott, you would have to do all the dirty work then. Because Jean, in his efforts to avoid getting his spear stained just after having received it, will dodge and avoid all enemy contact, while feasting his eyes on the nice piece Wink

Have fun with this nice piece Jean.


I would hope Jean would not leave me hanging and doing all the heavy lifting while he stared at his "precious". You wouldn't, would you Jean? I might need a bigger shield than my heater, like a Roman Scutum then.

Of course you could be with Jean Felix with the nice spear you have posted here before!


Scott

Chris Landwehr 10/10/49-1/1/09 My Mom
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Sat 24 Oct, 2009 1:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Kowalski wrote:
Felix R. wrote:

Well Scott, you would have to do all the dirty work then. Because Jean, in his efforts to avoid getting his spear stained just after having received it, will dodge and avoid all enemy contact, while feasting his eyes on the nice piece Wink

Have fun with this nice piece Jean.


I would hope Jean would not leave me hanging and doing all the heavy lifting while he stared at his "precious". You wouldn't, would you Jean? I might need a bigger shield than my heater, like a Roman Scutum then.

Of course you could be with Jean Felix with the nice spear you have posted here before!


Scott


Nah, I can't leave you all the fun. Wink Big Grin

Sure, Beers of all types, sea food, pastries and cakes, ice creams even spinach and broccoli if you like it ...... Wink

No indigestion, hangovers or drunkenness that can't be shrugged off instantly while we are at it. Wink

Oh' and in Valhalla your kit doesn't rust even without maintenance and all nick from a day of fighting disappear the next day as well as all wounds heal and the dead get another life ! ( Sounds like a good Computer game there ).

O.K. back to the subject: I'm pretty sure that all the nails holding things together are also hand made, but Michael should confirm this.

The 4 nails holding the butt plate where a surprise but I like the idea and the look but I'm sure we are all curious about Michael's design decision(s) there and elsewhere and how he made them or how they hold things together ?

The parts we can't see like diameter if the nails and how deep they go ? I know the plan was to pre-drill all holes sub dimensioned so that the nails wouldn't stress the wood. ( Some not period, but invisible things like using epoxy, was O.K. with me ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!


Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Sat 24 Oct, 2009 10:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jonathan Atkin




PostPosted: Sat 24 Oct, 2009 4:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You just must take this spear boar hunting!
"If I must choose between righteousness and peace, I choose righteousness''. - Theodore Roosevelt
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Michael Pikula




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Oct, 2009 4:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you everyone for all the wonderful comments!

Scott, I am about 6'1" tall as a reference for height.

Jeremy, Jean is correct. I used sterling silver wire where the languettes meet the socket for a cleaner seam. The languettes continue under the socket for about 3/4" so there is a steel meeting the silver on three sides which is why I consider it to be a type of inlay, although I suppose the purest might call it something else.

Carl, The pins on the languettes are forged from, 1/8" rod. I made a jig that had two halves that clamped over the pin and I heated up a section that stood proud and I upset the rod to create a head. I then placed the unforged section of the pin in a flexible shaft machine and turned the head so it would be true, and gave it the final dimension. I then sharpened the point on the grinder, and hammered the pins into a 1/16" pilot hole. I then made a tool that had a V cut into it and hammered the edges of the the pins down so that they would meet the languettes flush. I then went over the edges of the pins to make them smooth, then blended my finish.
I ran out of thin stock for the pins for the bottom and the ones that hold the socket, so I forged a small taper on some 3/8" round bar that I had laying around, and then once again I turned the shaft section to clean it up and give it a nice ridge on the inside. I then cleaned up the top and the pins for the bottom went in flush with the butt cap, and the ones in the Socket got hammered down with the V tool again and filed flat. It is also worth mentioning that I didn't round the socket pin edges too much since I wanted to create a visually sharp line that went with the overall design of the spear head. Unlike the pins in the languettes I don't see the socket pins being much of a chafe point, so I felt it was fine.
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Sat 24 Oct, 2009 10:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well that does seem to be a good example of what attention to detail means just with the making of the pins. Big Grin Cool

Just about every other aspect of this spear seems to have gotten the same attention to detail.
( No emoticon for " Gobsmacked " : http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-gob1.htm )

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Julien M




PostPosted: Sun 25 Oct, 2009 3:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's a mighty weapon, very impressive indeed, and he finish is superb too. I didn't think I could be drawn to a mere spear...guess I was wrong! Happy

Congratulations for this Mickael, and to you also Jean.

Cheers,

Julien
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Scott Kowalski




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PostPosted: Sun 25 Oct, 2009 2:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for the reply Michael. That is truly an impressive and imposing looking piece that you have made for Jean.

Scott

Chris Landwehr 10/10/49-1/1/09 My Mom
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Tue 27 Oct, 2009 9:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The " TRACKING " deathwatch continues: Good ! At least it's crossed the border and needs to clear Canada Customs. From past experience it is going to be a toss up if it arrives late this week or early next week. Wink Big Grin

In the mean time I'm increasing the statistics of " times viewed " for this Topic by having a look at the pics over and over again.

Can't say when or what but the odds are good that I will want Michael to make me something else custom or he might just post something I can't resist as available for immediate delivery.

The interesting thing about having a great craftsman like Michael around is that one can have something made that is not being made or commonly available but that one always liked or admired like the partisan/winged spear ( Épieux de guerre in French ).

Should wait until the new year at least though to refill the bank account and let the credit card cool down. ( Always pay the monthly balance in full though, but this does occasionally drain the bank account to lower than I feel conformable about. Wink Razz Laughing Out Loud ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Fri 30 Oct, 2009 7:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nope: Not here yet as it's still stuck in Canada Customs, so I guess it's going to be next week. Sad

Normal at this point as customs clearance is just a question of how fast one can expect Government workers to do the paperwork, and when lucky, clearance can happen the first day it's received by Customs but on average it seems to take 3 to 5 days ..... after which it goes back to the Postal service and that can take another couple of days to get to the local sorting centre and off onto the truck for delivery .......

In the mean time I'm consoling myself by playing with the spear I purchased from Michael a couple of months ago.

Look at this post as sort of a " tease " for people waiting for my comments as I don't have it yet in hand and just my " venting " off the nervous energy build-up waiting for the spear to get to me !

Next project ??? Maybe a Danish axe or a Rondel dagger or a Cinquedea or maybe a custom Medieval chopper of larger than normal size ( Monster fantasy version. Wink ). Hey, not just me: You guys should consider having Michael make something you just can't find easily in the product lines of the better small to medium industry makers out there.

Oh about all those polearms one can't find anywhere in a high quality version !? ( Even cheap versions of polearms are hard to find and many times even when the steel parts are well made the hafts can be made of low quality wood or badly assembled ).

Just suggestions: Corsèques, Bills, Early Halberds, Fauchard, Vouges, Boar Spears, Bardiche, Danisn Axes, Eared Daggers, Franciscas etc .......

Now there are other good custom makers out there, so one might say that I'm saying to support the finer maker/artists out there, but since this is Michael's Topic and about his work, that is top notch at still affordable prices, I'm encouraging people to consider ordering from him. Wink Big Grin

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Keith L. Rogers




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Oct, 2009 8:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean, I will gladly pay for an additional weapon from a quality smith like Michael if you spring for a Danish axe or a halberd - maybe a bill. Must be forged, properly hardened, tempered, etc, like your outstanding partizan was. PM if you think this might get you/us more leverage Laughing Out Loud

Here's hoping your spear gets cleared through customs soon! :toast:

-klr
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Fri 30 Oct, 2009 9:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Keith L. Rogers wrote:
Jean, I will gladly pay for an additional weapon from a quality smith like Michael if you spring for a Danish axe or a halberd - maybe a bill. Must be forged, properly hardened, tempered, etc, like your outstanding partizan was. PM if you think this might get you/us more leverage Laughing Out Loud

Here's hoping your spear gets cleared through customs soon! :toast:

-klr


Not sure what you mean by " leverage " but maybe if Michael get an order to make one of these he might make a special price for a small run of the same design after getting the " kinks out " of the prototype ? Although, at times this might mean the reverse as he might then know that the work involved is more than originally estimated ?

This sort of thing can go either way as after making something challenging making more can be easier as any problems causing the need for more work time on subsequent pieces might be solved or there could be less time/money spent in making a small production run rather than a single piece ? This may be what you had in mind about " leverage " !?

Michael did make a small production run of spear heads which is what got me started on the idea of a custom spear, so Michael might consider doing a production run if he had up-front commitments to buy ? Note that this is just speculation on my part and any such " deals " would have to be initiated by Michael as I certainly can't speak for him. ( Also conditions might change on a case by case basis. Wink )

Not making any commitments here, for now, but lets just say that " me " or another person had a design for a Danish axe, just as an example, they or I could with Michael's approval offer others to order the same design ..... just an idea. Wink

By the way, as I mentioned before I'm O.K. with Michael making more Partisan Spears identical to my design if there is a demand for it/them: Any individual pricing or small run bargain pricing is obviously completely up to Michael.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Keith L. Rogers




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PostPosted: Fri 30 Oct, 2009 9:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

By 'leverage' i only meant perhaps a smith would be more willing to make something if he had two firm orders rather than one. I sent Michael a PM a while back that I wanted two 'viking' spears, like his previous 'number 4' if/when he was going to make more. My personal interest is 9th-11th century, hence me wanting a Danish axe, but my 20 yr daughter is crazy about halberds, so I'd go for one of those, too, for a gift.

Regarding costs - I understand and am willing to support the 'learning curve' if the item turns out to be more difficult than anticipated. (I have made dozens of custom celtic harps - ask me how I know...) I'm in this with you, Jean, if it works out for a Danish axe or halberd.

-klr
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Fri 30 Oct, 2009 9:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Keith L. Rogers wrote:
By 'leverage' i only meant perhaps a smith would be more willing to make something if he had two firm orders rather than one. I sent Michael a PM a while back that I wanted two 'viking' spears, like his previous 'number 4' if/when he was going to make more. My personal interest is 9th-11th century, hence me wanting a Danish axe, but my 20 yr daughter is crazy about halberds, so I'd go for one of those, too, for a gift.

Regarding costs - I understand and am willing to support the 'learning curve' if the item turns out to be more difficult than anticipated. (I have made dozens of custom celtic harps - ask me how I know...) I'm in this with you, Jean, if it works out for a Danish axe or halberd.

-klr


Yeah, basically what I thought you meant except I went way over the top letting my imagination think in terms of expanding on the idea or variations on the idea, but I would guess that if two or more people approached Michael for a quote on a design made for both or for a small group run of the design he might accept to do it ?

So in a simple case two people could ask for two of something to be made and negotiate a price mutually agreeable to themselves and Michael. Wink

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Michael Pikula




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PostPosted: Sat 31 Oct, 2009 7:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the ideas guys, and as always I am more then happy to listen to suggestions and try to accommodate then in my decision making. While it isn't a problem, to do multiple pieces that are the same, I don't know how eager I am to bark up that tree just yet. Multiple pieces can be make much faster, more exact, and more consistent using a modern machine shop then by forging. When I was in Finland I was talking with a blacksmith friend of mine and he said that the price per piece, if they are all to be the same, should be more then if just making a one-off. "Remember, you are a hand worker, not a machine"

Regarding the learning curve, while I still feel like I am working my way up the ladder, and I am seeing improvements in my work from project to project. Cost and learning curve shouldn't impact each other. The customer should receive a proper functioning product, for the price that the work demands, regardless of whether it is the first one, or the fifteenth one. The first attempt will always take more time, but part of the payment is the opportunity to work on a new project, and get financial compensation. If I was to make Jean's spear and have it sit around without a buyer, then all of the time invested and skills acquired are wonderful, but they don't put food on the table this month. When you acquire skills, work with a great customer, and can put food on the table, what else could you ask for?

If some individuals got together and decided they would like X amount of "_____" then there would be no financial reason to go about it this way. Plus from my end, I would much rather have all the pieces share some common elements, but have each piece be unique in it's own way since it mixes it up a little and allows for some creativity.
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Sat 31 Oct, 2009 4:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No cost savings then as you said it's not machine made so it's not a question of programming a CNC machine and then churning out product. Wink Question

I can see where someone could say I like this piece you just made for " Jean/Me " and can you make me one like it, but it should be an opportunity for that person and you to " personalize " the project even if just slightly as dimensions need not replicate the other piece perfectly ! In fact when things are hand made replicating dimensions can be harder than approximating " eyeballing " dimensions: One could compare making the first as " A walk in the snow " while the duplicate is like trying to walk in the exact footsteps already in the snow without making the footprints bigger or different ! This is very much a " pain " to do as anyone living in a country with snow has tried this as a child. Wink Laughing Out Loud

So lets say that two people got together wanting pretty much the same thing it makes more sense to treat each as it's own custom project once work is started on each piece and each customer can add or change to the design

Only makes sense to even discuss this as being the same project Or a small run, if the pieces are all based on a single agreed upon design drawing I think ..... so at the design stage there might be commonality of design concept but on the execution stage they would default to being treated as separate projects with separate decisions made aesthetically during the making as well as different prices should one of the customer want something harder to do or more decoration, expensive materials etc ....

If there could be some savings in time or costs I can only see it happening at the early concept and design stage and the customer relations/communication would still have to be a one on one thing and not one customer making the design decisions for all !

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Keith L. Rogers




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Nov, 2009 8:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael, I am going to do more reseach, but may have some interesting projects to tempt you with in the future. Good hammering!
-klr
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Mon 02 Nov, 2009 8:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yippee Big Grin , finally out of Canada Customs so now it's waiting the usual day or two for it to get from Customs to sorting centre to the delivery truck: Wasn't expecting any problems at Customs but it's always in the back of one's mind that some delay(s) might happen for errors in paperwork reasons or a bureaucratic "glitch " happening. Wink Waiting, It's all part of the fun.Razz

It's like crossing the border one always seem to feel anxious or guilty even when one has nothing to hide. Eek! WTF?!

Oh, I can now type in the tracking number from memory. Sad Blush Wink Laughing Out Loud

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Michael Pikula




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Nov, 2009 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Happy to hear it cleared Customs Jean!

When the lady at the post office had doubts about sending the package due to size I was saying in my mind I was thinking time to buy a Insight and start delivering my work in person.... Although one can only imagine what a scrubby looking guy in a tiny car and a huge spear would look like, and what the border patrol would think... Luckily the spear went out just fine!
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Maurizio D'Angelo




PostPosted: Mon 02 Nov, 2009 11:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm happy for you Jean, this work has received increasing attention. It seemed the wait for a birth.
Maybe it's nice because it was lived with the progress of work.
Michael, I programme with cad-cam, my works are strings of code for CNC machines.
The most creative is the design, implementation much less.
I love the hand work, you're an excellent example of this.
My compliments. Happy
Ciao
Maurizio
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