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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > brigandine with sleeves Reply to topic
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Gert-Jan Beukers




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Mar, 2010 4:48 am    Post subject: brigandine with sleeves         Reply with quote

Dear members of myArmoury.com,

On the magical place called 'the internet' I found a nice looking Brigandine with sleeves. My question is ; Are there sources of brigandines with sleeves? I typed 'Brigandine sleeves' at Google and found descriptions (wikipedia : The form of the brigandine is essentially the same as the civilian doublet, though it is commonly sleeveless. However, depictions of brigandine armour with sleeves are known.'') but no images. Does anybody has images of brigandines with sleeves ?

Thank you in advance,


Gert-Jan

Correct me if I'm wrong.... I'm dutch
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Allan Senefelder




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Mar, 2010 5:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Theres pics of one or two in either Stones Guide or The Armorer and His Craft, I can't remember which.
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Danny Grigg




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Mar, 2010 9:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:
Theres pics of one or two in either Stones Guide or The Armorer and His Craft, I can't remember which.



Allan, it's Stone's "A Glossary of the construction...." book

Here are some:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/arch...nadine.jpg
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%...nadine.jpg
http://www.flg.es/HTML/Obras_3/Coracinadeterciopelorojo_3310.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=J5PgapzD6FoC...mp;f=false



Danny
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Mar, 2010 10:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those pictures remind me of Chinese and Korean brigandines, which very often have sleeves (some are sleeveless). Stone has some pics of these Chinese armours.
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Mark T




PostPosted: Sat 06 Mar, 2010 8:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's what David Edge and John Miles Paddock offer in Arms and armour of the medieval knight, in the 15th C chapter (pp. 120-121):

Quote:
In the fifteenth centry brigandines were often depicted with what appear to be sleeves, as shown in the Arzila Tapestries, and in Franco-Burgundian tapestry now in the Burrell Collection which depicts Hercules initiating the Olympic Games. However, these would seem to be spaulders constructed in brigandine form but attached to the main part of the brigandine by points.


Incidentally, other images on the Steel Mastery website, where Gert-Jan's original image is from, don't show fully-formed sleeves like the one above, but spaulder-type parts which, while attached at the shoulders, actually then 'form' around the upper arm with straps.

Their other brigs, while not advertised as being 'with shoulders', also usually have shoulders as one of the optional extras ...

Cheers,
Mark T
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Mark T




PostPosted: Sat 06 Mar, 2010 8:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For those who are interested, here's the link to Steel Mastery's 'European brigandine with shoulder protection': http://www.steel-mastery.com/index.php?&m...uct_id=534

The best example is the red one - just click on the thumbnails on the left hand side. These show how the 'shoulder flaps' are formed into sleeves with leather straps.
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David Teague




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Mar, 2010 8:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello All,

If anybody is thinking of ordering from the company being discussed in this thread, please read the following thread before placing an order.

FYI.

Yours,

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Mark T




PostPosted: Sun 07 Mar, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David, I'd been monitoring that thread too. I did note, however, that the main poster was quoted a delivery date of February, and the first week of March seemed a little early to be raising a concern. I've heard Steel Mastery had fulfillment problems a couple of years back but that these were fixed; let's hope they're able to keep things on track, as they're one of a very few suppliers of brigs.

Back on topic: I mainly posted the link above because I think the different images are closer to what Edge & Paddock referred to as spaulders attached with points. However, I don't really see what the benefits of points on brigandine spaulders would be, compared with ones that are sewn on as in those pics. I'm not a personal fan of the 'whole' sleeve in the photo in the OP, and see some movement benefits to the shoulder being sewn on at the top, but joined around the arm with a strap. The only benefit of points I can see of the 'spaulders + points' option is the flexibility of choosing whether or not to wear the spaulders ... but if you've decided that brig shoulders are the way to go, then having them sewn on would presumably be more secure, and spread the weight more evenly.

Just my buck-o-five ...
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Mark T




PostPosted: Sat 13 Mar, 2010 10:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've just found this thread, which apart from comparing Steel Mastery's brigandines to other suppliers', also contains a reference to a period image of a brigandine with sleeves: http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/forums/viewtop...mp;t=20355

The brigandine is described as being 'blue with the opening at the back', and is from a text written by Guillaume Caoursin, Vice Chancellor of the Order of St. Joh in 1482, printed in 1496, with illustrations done in 1483 by the master of the Cardinel of Bourbon ... does anyone have a copy of that image, or know how to track it down?

A quick Google search found this digitisation of Historia von Rhodis, by Gillaume Caoursin and Johannes Adelphus, (1513) at the Munich Digitisation Centre: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00001935/images/

However, while it contains lots of images of garments with sleeves, I can't see any that seem to clearly be brigandines, and the illustrations are just line drawings (ie, not in colour). Wikimedia Commons offers this colour image, which seems promising: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SiegeOfRhodes1480.jpg

Does anyone know where to locate the rest of this book's images online?
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Mark T




PostPosted: Mon 15 Mar, 2010 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bingo! The poster at LivingHistory.co.uk let me know that the image in question is on the front cover of The knights of Rhodes: The palace and the city, by Elias Kollias (Ekdotike Atenon SA, 2005), and confirmed that this was part of the series by the Cardinel of Bourbon's master illuminator in 1483.

The blue brigandine with sleeves can clearly be seen in the lower left, and is contrasted with other brigandines without sleeves.



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Cover of 'The knights of Rhodes', Elias Kollias.jpg

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Mark T




PostPosted: Fri 26 Mar, 2010 7:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's another image which appears to me to be a brigandine with some kind of sleeves - although the sleeves themselves do not appear to have plates behind.

This image is of English archers at Ribodane, from the Chronique d'Angleterre, V. III by Jean de Wavrin, c. 1480 (Royal 14 E IV f.252, sourced from the British Library at http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?image=061143).

The fourth archer from the left wears what I'm assuming is meant to be a brigandine, given the rivets arranged in threes. The blue 'puffy' sleeves appear to be attached, rather than part of a garment underneath - the other images of outer garments with attached sleeves all clearly have just a faint grey line suggesting a fold of the cloth or stitching at the shoulder (as does this one), while other sleeveless brigs usually have a thicker black line, almost representative of shadow, clearly showing a delineation of brigandine from the garment underneath.

This distinction is not easy to see on the image available online, but John Waterer's Leather and the warrior (Northhampton, Museum of Leathercraft, 1981, p. 37) reprints this image in full colour and at a large size, where the difference is clearly visible.

So, while the sleeves do not appear to be of brigandine construction (ie, they do not have the trefoil rivet pattern), they do appear to still be attached to the brigandine.



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Mark T




PostPosted: Sat 27 Mar, 2010 10:33 pm    Post subject: Brigandine with sleeves from Jean Froissart's Chronicles         Reply with quote

I know it's hard to see in the image below, but in a high-res print I have of this, the archer in the bottom right hand corner with the gold-coloured sallet is wearing what appears to be a blue brigandine with 'brigandined' sleeves.

The fallen swordsman in the centre foreground also appears to have a red brigandine with sleeves under his blue coat.

From Jean Froissart's Chronicles, image of the battle of Crecy (BNF, FR 2643, fol. 165v):



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crecy Froissart.jpg

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Mark T




PostPosted: Sat 03 Apr, 2010 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A couple of things from other posts on myArmoury that are probably worth consolidating here ... from the 'Would you choose brigandine or plate?' thread (http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...p;start=22):

Randall Moffett wrote:
I have found brigandined shoulders in inventories and such ...


And:

Ben van Koert wrote:
Speaking about brigandine shoulders, they give a very nice effect to your armour, should you incorporate them. I used a pair in my previous setup, and they really stand out on a battlefield. This is how it looks:


Ben also posted the following image on another thread here:



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Ben van Koert 1 (27.07.08 MyArmoury).jpg

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Gert-Jan Beukers




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PostPosted: Fri 09 Apr, 2010 12:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you guys for all te replies! They were really helpful!


I ordered it from steel mastery, but a slightly different one (with another shoulder construction)


Greetings,

Gert-Jan



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Nikodem Czechowski




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PostPosted: Thu 27 May, 2010 9:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And what do you think about these:
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/bambe.../original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/bambe.../original/
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Mark T




PostPosted: Sat 09 Oct, 2010 3:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This topic is like an itch I just keep having to scratch ...

Here's The Martyrdom Of St Ursula by Hans Memling cira 1489 - the man in the right foreground appears to be wearing a red brigandine with sleeves.

If you want to see it at a larger size, it's online here, which will allow you to zoom in to see details: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...ng_074.jpg

(Thanks to David Teague for reminding me of this image!)



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The-Martyrdom-Of-St-Ursula-by-Hans-Memling-cira-1489-small.gif

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Mark T




PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov, 2010 11:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's another possible candidate - this time from Memling's Passion of Christ, 1470-71: http://www.hansmemling.org/Scenes-from-the-Pa...large.html

While the detail is hard to make out at this resolution, the colouring looks like it could suggest a red brigandine with brightly-coloured rivets. If so, then it looks like it has spaulders.



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Brig with spaulders Scenes-from-the-Passion-of-Christ-(detail-3)-1470, Hans Memling.jpg


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Iagoba Ferreira




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm in a bit of hurry, but the tapestries of Pastrana may be of interest.
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Mark T




PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 1:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Iagoba,

It certainly is! Thanks for the lead.

It looks like the brig in the photo below shows the points that were used to attach the spaulders.



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Tapestries of Pastrana brig + spaulders.jpg


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Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Mark T




PostPosted: Fri 19 Nov, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This portion of the Pastrana tapestries shows three brigandines with spaulders, all with detail showing the points:


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Tapestries of Pastrana brig + spaulders 3.jpg


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Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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