Well I replied to an e-mail by Jessica and asked her to put me in her production cue.

Here are a few random comments:

A) This jacket in the default base package is a great idea and designed for a specific purpose although it can be used somewhat as light underarmour and somewhat as a period piece of clothing but it isn't meant to be historical as much as practical. It does seem that stylistically it pays tribute to period styles but is a " modern " training jacket.

B) It can be modified to be more protective for bouting ( light gambison ) or possibly look more historical to a degree.

C) My personal choice will be some moderate changes to make it more suitable for light bouting and light under armour use.

D) If people ask for a great deal of modifications then maybe it would be simpler to have Jessica make something like a true gambison or be more strictly historical: There is a point where modifications become so numerous or extensive that it would be a different product.

So there is a line below which it's customization, but still the original concept of a training jacket, and above this line it should be treated as a different project that Jessica can and should price differently if she decides to accept the commission.

I will say that a significant part of our reasoning behind wearing belts is an aesthetic, rather than utilitarian purpose.

We felt that adding a belt to the jacket gave it much more the appearance of it being a martial arts uniform, as opposed to us with just the wrestling jacket.

While people might dismiss this, we felt our appearance is important; not so much for the HEMA community, but for the world at large who might be looking in. When an ordinary person off the street sees someone in their judogi, they recognize it as a martial arts uniform.

While a person might have no idea of what style of martial arts we are performing, the uniform helps people to recognize us as martial artists, and I think adds a degree of legitimacy (in the eyes of the beholder) to what we do.

Hey folks,

I know of only one belt grab - it's in Ott, and from behind (there might be others, but not many). Not using a belt is a far smaller compromise than the fact that we omit all Mortstosse in our play.

All the best,

Christian

Hey David,

We probably don't need another thread...no need to beat what is, after all, a personal choice to death. :)

Cheers!

Christian

PS. Yes, these jackets do indeed rock!!!

I really didn't want this to turn into a thread about our choice of belts (hence my friendly comment: "Get over it. :)") but rather wanted to focus on Jess's jacket. I know some of this is coming from a desire to be helpful (indeed, some of it is coming from friends), but it does get a little tiring that people seem to be so quick to nitpick at things from other groups that ultimately don't really matter. As I've stated: We're happy with the belts. I never said anyone else needed to wear them.

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:

Here's a better solution: don't wear any belt. Generally, illustrations of period wrestling don't show them, and only a technique or two even mentions them.

And truthfully, if people don't care for belts, I think that's the best solution. There are a few techniques that imply a grasping of the jacket at the waist (not a belt), but the Revival Clothing jackets that others at VAF wear fit snugly enough that its sometimes hard to do. I personally preferred having a belt there. For example, in the video there's one where Pamela reaches over my arm and grasps the belt to throw me... that particular play comes out of the Gothaer Codex, where the illustrationd doesn't actually show a belt, but does seem to imply grasping the fabric, which really turns this into a very powerful throw, and if we can't do that, then the belt works. Then there's the part in Ott/Ringeck where we're told to sink our weight if the person grasps the back of the belt. After that, I'm unaware of any specific techniques that use a belt, so I agree: No belt is necessary. I went several years without using one at all. Still, we discussed this amongst ourselves and made the decision for our own group, and that's what we're currently doing.

To me, the belt isn't as Asian looking as some in the WMA community think. Case in point: I've had two Asian martial artists e-mail me through YouTube who said they didn't even know about medieval martial arts beforehand, but said they liked the look of the jacket and belt combo because it looked more medieval European than Asian but still looked like a martial arts gi. In the end, that's what we're going for, but as I've stated, I'm not saying anyone else needs to wear them.

So, back to my main point: Jess's jacket is awesome, and if you do medieval martial arts, I think you need one. :)

Well, also, I'd hope that people aren't just training the canonical plays but trying to understand how they manifest in variations. We do this a lot, including wrestling while wearing daggers and swords, so for us, anyway, the belts serve multiple purposes - holding weapons and providing another point of leverage for variants on the techniques. And, of course, Fiore's c.1410 and late 14th, early 15th c garments usually show belts... ;)

Either way, I'm just grateful that folks are wearing more than t-shirts!