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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Nov, 2010 1:26 pm    Post subject: Arming doublet of the 15th century         Reply with quote

To take a break from making a list of 15th century German Gothic armour (it has 45 entries and rising) I made a quick survey of arming doublets in 15th century, since I will need one of these too. (yeah, all this research is just because I'm buying myself an armour in the near future). There are several available arming garments on the market, and I hope this research will help me choose the right one.


Sources:
A Depiction of an Italian Arming Doublet, c1435-45, Tobias E. Capwell
list from http://www.diu-minnezit.de website: http://www.diu-minnezit.de/realie_details.php...&tid=4
And a bit of my own searching.


I will focus on depictions of doublets. I know there are mentions of them in various manuscripts, too, but most of them are written in middle English and very contradictory, so I don't find them very useful.


List would be very short if I would limit myself to one country, or just to doublets that are obviously meant to be worn under armour. I have included civil doublets that have (decorative) arming points on the shoulders. Why? Military and civil garments followed the same fashion ideas, and as far as evidence shows arming doublets weren't visually that much different than a civil doublet. I have also included some early 16th century arming garments.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1427 farsetto of Pandolfo III Malatesta, reconstruction. Made in 2009 after a research of a garment discovered in a tomb. Some researches describe the "arming farsetto" as being very similar than this garment for civil use.



1435 - 1445 Italian, Museum of fine arts, Budapest, drawing - points for arms, padded skirt



1435 - 1445 King Syphax (fol 2825v), Istituto al Gabinetto, Rome - under giornea (overcoat) we can see a doublet with padded skirt and arms, and with points for arms and legs. Since drawing depicts captured warrior it is very little doubt that this is really an arming garment



1440 - 1460 Holstentor Museum in Lübeck - back view, one of two garments in museum, another similar one is in Stendal. Rust stains in front show that they have been worn with breastplate (but no backplate), and fringed decoration and quilting pattern link them to Kartenburst armour. Thickly padded, closer to jack than arming doublet.



1444 - 1447 by Hans Bornemann, Nikolaikirche Lüneburg - figure on the left wears arming garment similar to Lübeck and Stendal examples.



1445 ; 1450 Trojanischer Krieg Zeltlager der Griechen vor Troia, Martinus Opifex, Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, Wien - figure in the back is getting dressed, seems that se wears a white arming garment



1450 - 1455 By Pisanello, wounded knight, armour is already stripped, he wears mail skirt and shortened hauberk over a tightly fitting arming garment.



1450 - 1452 Portrait of a Young man, by Cosme Tura, Metropolitan Museum of Art NY - civil garment with decorative poits



1452 - 1466 by Piero dell Francesca, Victory of Heracleus, Arezzo - garment with points, civil or arming?



1455 Donor Portrait of Don Inigo de Mendoza by Jorge Ingles, Duque de Infantado Collection, Madrid - there are supposed to be several other depictions of similar garments, I remember a German example where only a small portions is seen, but I can't find it



1460 How a man schall be armyd Pierpont Morgan Library - picture that goes with famous text.


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Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Nov, 2010 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

1465 - 1474 Ludovico Gonzaga, by Andrea Mantegna, Castle San Giorgio, Mantua - civil garment with decorative points



1465 - 1474 Sigismundo Gonzaga, by Andrea Mantegna, castle San Giorgio, Mantua - clearly civil garment, since it is worn by a child



1465 La Bouquechardiere, Waddeson Manor MS 11 fol 97 - Tobias Capwell describes this as wearing armour over a normal civil clothing, for decorative purpose in a non fighting context



1480 ; 1500 ; Revúca ; Slowakei ; Laurentiuskirche Geißelung des Hl Quintinus - undressing a knight, clothes beneath show very little detail but appear "civil"



1480 ; 1500 ; Revúca ; Slowakei ; Laurentiuskirche Geißelung des Hl Quintinus, detail



1480 Family of Umberto de Sacrati, detail, Alte Pinakothek, Munich - decorative points on a civil garment



1480 Portrait of a warrior, by Francesco Bonsignori, Walters Art Gallery, Baltimore - points on pauldrons shown



1480 Portrait of Francesco Sforza by Francesco Bonsignori, National Gallery of Art, Washington DC - points on pauldrons shown



1485 Hector Arming for his Last Battle, De Rothschild Collection MS 8 fol 48 - typical depiction of arming, since knight is almost fully armed we can't see any details of underlying garments and methods of attachment



1515 by Jan Provoost, Brugge, Museum voor Schoone Kunsten, 16th century, spaulders pointed to arming doublet



1518 by Cavazzola, Galleria Uffizi, Florence, arming garment reinforced with (leather?) strips, similar to that of Don Inigo de Mendoza



1550 by MORONI, Giovanni Battista, Nat gallery London - arming garment reinforced with (leather?) strips, with voiders pointed to it


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Thomas R.




PostPosted: Mon 15 Nov, 2010 2:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Blaz,

great thread, you've opened there. I am too, facing right now the task of assembling a 1470/80 southgerman kit. I'll go for a schaller, bevor and plategauntlets. Maybe a breastplate next summer. Plus arming doublet. Since I'll try to sew it myself, I appreciate your efforts to collect pictures and will try to contribute. The Lübeck-garment looks a bit thick to me, more like a late gambeson/padded jack. Plus it lacks the arms? Fellow german fencers at Hammaborg do have lots of pictures online of this padded doublet. Have a look on their page:

http://www.hammaborg.de/de/bilder_videos/muse.../index.php

Best regards,

Thomas

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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Mon 15 Nov, 2010 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I have seen the excellent photos of Lübeck "waffenrock" from Hammaborg site, they really show how padded the garment is. But I think it has to be, since it was meant to be worn with partial armour. I don't remember if the sleeves were removed or if it was meant to be worn with separate sleeves.

This image shows the similar garment "in situ", Altarpiece of the Adoration of the Lamb, by Jan van Eyck, c1430. St Bavon, Ghent:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...Christ.jpg

The leftmost knight has only a Kastenburst breastplate without faulds, so the protective garment is seen - and it has exactly the same vertical stitching, side gore and decorative woolen fringes below. So the surviving examples could even be from 1430 or earlier, even though they were at first connected to much later periods. But not my cup of tea, I'm also looking at 1470 -1475 Austrian, South German thing.


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Jens Boerner




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov, 2010 4:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

The Textile armour from lubeck and stendal (there are 3) is dated from the first half of the 15th century; one is currently in display in nuremberg. They are NO arming doublets, they are no doublets at all. I would emphasize the difference: a doublet is something you tie your leg clothing to, and which is very tight. There are very very few evidences that those were generally "padded"; it is not at all necessary. Some sources talk point to a filling, which is not interchangeable with a "padding". The textile armour from lubeck and stendal - which never had sleeves- were intended to tie a breastplate to (which is also shown in depictions). Some of them have laces for attaching - presumingly- the leg armour. The term "textile armour" describes them the best, since they are filled with cotton wool, up to thumb thickness, and the resulting garment is not soft, not "padding", but stiff and resists cuts and thrusts. Kombined with a breastplate it is a light but nevertheless enclosing torso armour.

Also, several of the images in this thread do also not depict arming doublets, for instance the doublet of Pandolfo III Malatesta (which is also realy 15th century). This is a typical italien civil doublet. Quilting is NOT a sign for the garment being worn with armour. In fact, quilted garments were quite common to lots of sources. The italien armour- for which there are at least some speculative solutions - is quite different from the german gothic one, and I know of hardly any clear evidence for what was worn under german gothic armour. The doublet I made (link in the first post) is a combination of the few sources I know- but is more or less nothing else then a sturdy doublet, made from linnen, the lower end quilted due to stability reasons, not for padding (it has a thin cotton wool filling).

I cannot emphasize it enough: it is very very important to make a difference between what was worn underneath armour in generall, and textile armour In the early 14th century, we do have evidences for textle armour being worn underneath metal armour, but that changes presumingly as soon as the armour gut tighter and more fitted. However, textile armour worn without any further addition has to be constructed differently.


Sidenote:

Theere is no such thing as a southern germany fashion, and if, it differes from austria. You cannot interconnect that.
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Thomas R.




PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov, 2010 5:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jens,

thanks for your insights! How long do you think textile armor in the luebeck style was being used in the 15th century? Which arm-protection would be used with such an armor?

Unpadded arming doublets are only then usefull, if the complete upper part of body was enclosed in armor, I guess?
I'll heed your advice (given to me in an other forum by you Wink ) and aim now for a 1470/80s kit. By the way: It's nice to meet you here as well.

Best regards,
Thomas

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PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov, 2010 7:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jens,

Interesting post. Just a few questions.

What evidence do you have that the doublets were not padded under armour? Further do we have evidence that as soon as armour was complete under armour became unpadded? I have heard this idea very often and to this day have not ever gotten much of a solid evidence based answer.

From what I have seen in the past the Hastings MS is the only source and to me a red herring. It never states or does not state the garment is unpadded. Further to nearly 1450 we have various documents that continue to account for padded under armour. Several inventories from western Europe include padded doublets along with the full harness, the Archdios. of York's Probate inventory includes such an account. Full harnesses were in use by Agincourt and all the major French and English sources mention gambesons or other padded armour under the full plate/hauberks of the French knights.

I have no doubt that a light to unpadded garment could serve under a full harness but what evidence do we really have? Personally padded doublets seem to come up fairly common in inventories coupled with armour and I wonder why there would be reason to think it could not be a method of wearing ones armour. The questions should be less of is it possible over if they actually did it or not and most times these conversations end up based on this logic.

RPM
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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov, 2010 8:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greetings Jens,

Your arming doublet looks great, and it's rare to see a reconstruction so well documented and presented! It's really an inspiration. If only I could sew... Happy But I gave up on that, after many hours trying to do nice flat-felled stitches on linen shirt...

I agree with everything you have written. I know that Lübeck garments have very little in common with arming doublet that goes beneath full armour, and that most of the depicted garments above are not arming doublets. Maybe I wasn't clear enough with my descriptions, civil garments are only meant as inspiration. And of course we can not generalize and copy Italian fashion for a German doublet.

Some images that show garments worn under armour:

1463 ; Wien ; Österreich ; Wien ; Österreichische Nationalbibliothek ; cod. 2823 ; fol. 127r
Pleated loose skirts under fauld


1463 ; Wien ; Österreich ; Wien ; Österreichische Nationalbibliothek ; cod. 2823 ; fol. 150r
Pleated loose skirts under fauld


1465 ; 1475 ; Babenhausen ; Deutschland ; Schwaben ; Kath. Pfarrkirche St. Andreas
Vertical quilting on garment under fauld, , looks like thick padding


1465 ; 1475 ; Wien ; Österreich ; Wien ; Österreichische Nationalbibliothek ; cod. 2766 ; fol. 218v
Looks like decorative ribbons similar to the ones on Lübeck garments


1465 ; 1475 ; Wien ; Österreich ; Wien ; Österreichische Nationalbibliothek ; cod. 3044 ; fol. 144v
Kneeling figure has an overgarment with stitching similar to Lübeck examples


1475 ; 1485 ; Bad Aussee ; Österreich ; Steiermark ; Spitalskirche
Looks almost like normal wrinkled shirt worn under vambraces, or is that very tight parallel stitches?


1482 ; Grönenbach ; Deutschland ; Schwaben ; Kath. Pfarrkirche St. Philipp und Jakob
Vertically quilted garment under fauld, looks thick


1495 ; 1505 ; Rakusy ; Slowakei ; Pfarrkirche
Garment under vambraces looks tightly fitting.


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Stefan Hanson




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov, 2010 10:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A very fine survey indeed Blaz ! I am myself ( since five years, I am not a Master of the the needle as Jens ) also working on an attempt for an arming doublet very much based on the depection on the Ingles painting. My one is made of four layers sturdy handwoven linen handcolored red ( as english sources of fencing doublets tell ), two layers in the arms which will be quite tight fitting under the armpits for movement and to keep the armour on the arm as slim and close fitting as possible. All layers "reinforced" and quilted with nut-brown lamb leather strips. Waist will be very tight ( no more beer for me ! )allowing for a gothic breast, but also to keep the garment as closefitting as possible. Neckwill be high. Innermost layerwill be silk for comfort as it is leading away the body warmth and slips easilyoff when the body and arms cling to the the wet sweaty garment. To allow the upper body move more freely,my leg armour will be worn from a seperate waistcoat made of sturdy linen with silk on the inside. This put the weight on the waist and shoulders and divide it between them. It also keep the top of the leg armour tighter to the body. The hosen are also attached to this armless waistcoat. In this way I can soon undress from body armour and the doublet "without loosing my pants" and cool off quickly after wearing and fighting in the armour. The sources for this solution are sadly lacking (as arming doublets themselves ) but sleeveless doublets in civilian life are common and I can see no reason why people back then would not try to find good working solutions. Even as an hardcore die hard historian re-enactor you will have to fill in some gaps or not allow yourself to do this experimental hobby at all. Wink
According to all pictures and sculptures arming doublets were not very much padded but rather relied on sturdiness. To thick it will keep and build a too high body temperature. ( If fighting in the wintertime textile garment would more probably be worn outside the armour as many picture sources show.
They do need some thickness though to withstand penetrations ( assisted by mail obviously) and be strong enough to take wear and tear, chafing from the metal and so on. These are some thoughts and experiences on the subject from twenty years of using re-enactment armour and many good discussions on the subject.

Please post more interesting views and thoughts, old and new experiences

all the best from a cold cold Scandinavia

Stefan

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Chris Kelson




PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov, 2010 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thinking about those very tight fitting garments under the plate armour in some of those pics, I recalled the very tight fitting clothing depicted in (primarily, it is in other things) Talhoffer's manuals such as here:
and earlier in the thread here:
Quote:


Possibly the same style of clothing, particularly the collarless open fronted doublet type is being worn under the armour?
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Mark T




PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov, 2010 11:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's what appears to be a padded garment under armour from Hans Memling's Passion of Christ (1470-71): http://www.hansmemling.org/Scenes-from-the-Pa...70-71.html


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Padded garment Scenes-from-the-Passion-of-Christ-(detail-3)-1470, Memling.jpg


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PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov, 2010 11:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Toby Capwell's The real fighting stuff: Arms and armour at Glasgow Museums (Glasgow: Glasgow Museums, 2007), has a great image on page 2 of what appears to be a long red padded garment under plate armour. The accompanying text says 'Detail from a stained-glass panel, 'Agony in the garden', c. 1440, German'.

Some quick Google-fu didn't turn it up; does anyone have a copy they can upload?

Page 21 of the same book has an image from possibly the same stained-glass window, that might show a blue-coloured arming garment at the bottom of a mail skirt ... I'll leave it to other more knowledgeable folks to confirm if that's what it is.

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Jens Boerner




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 2:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas R. wrote:
Hi Jens,

thanks for your insights! How long do you think textile armor in the luebeck style was being used in the 15th century? Which arm-protection would be used with such an armor?

Unpadded arming doublets are only then usefull, if the complete upper part of body was enclosed in armor, I guess?
I'll heed your advice (given to me in an other forum by you Wink ) and aim now for a 1470/80s kit. By the way: It's nice to meet you here as well.

Best regards,
Thomas


The lubeck style textzile armour can be fiound quite often in sources of the late 15th century, in fact I would call it the textile armour with the most evidences. In germany we have hardly real evidences for textile armour being worn very often in the late 15th century, not only that there are hardly images, also text sources do not mention them, but breastplates as the minimum requirements for a feudal soldier. I attached an examle from the cod. 3044. (Oh I now see someone alse already has postet it)

I also know of hardly any occurances of padded doublets being worn in germany, nor in war nor in peace. You can see very often armed persons only wearing a breast plate with a jacket (either over the jacket or underneath), for instance in the all-famous housebook of wolfegg. For instance the emperial levy for neuss drawn up 1474 in the nuremberg region generally had a kettle hat, a staff weapon, and a breast plate, that was all.

@Randall:
Quote:
What evidence do you have that the doublets were not padded under armour? Further do we have evidence that as soon as armour was complete under armour became unpadded? I have heard this idea very often and to this day have not ever gotten much of a solid evidence based answer.

The question has to be vice versa: what evidences do we have FOR them being padded? I cannot give evidences AGAINST something, I have to bring some FOR something Wink Otherwise I could state more or less everything, and somebody else has to bring me evidences against it Wink
The sources become scarce after about 1360, the first occurances are the lubeck and stendal type of garments in the early 15th century, for which there are effigies also, in the early 15th century. Those are definetly quilted, but were worn especially with the kastenbrust type of armour. After all, it is not really necessary. As soon as the armour is made from full plate you do not have the need for an additional textile armour being worn underneath and protecting you from the maille being penetrated, and those areas which were still covered with maille pieces simply do not allow a thick textile armour. The lubeck type of armour generally had to sleeves attached, only "zaddeln" or "fransen". Of course you can wear textile armour combined with single or few pieces of other armour; the memling image is citated very very very very often for that; in that case a soldier is wearinmg textile armour over maille, and over that a single breastplate. That does make sense, he does not have a backplate. For a full plate armour that does not make too much sense, at least not for a late german gothic one.

The hastings ms is one of the few text courses mentioning padding; however, it describes the harness "when fighting by foot". It's not completly sure what is meant by that, but at least the author though it was important to mention the difference. Other sources mention torunament armour being worn with padded textiles underneath, but also state that it was intended for tournement purposes.

Mentioning agincourt, that is about the time frame of the lubeck and standal textile armour. As said, we do have effigies of that time frame (and a few images) which show that type of garment being worn underneath plate armour, but only in a small timeframe; after that we only see it in a shorter version without backplate. In fact we can hardly judge of the kastenbrust armour also was not worn without backplate, there are very few surviving examples of kastenbrust type backplates. As for textile armour being worn solo- generally adressed as "gambeson"- those seem to had been very common in england and france, images also from switzerland depicting englisch archers prove that- but again, very few occurances in germany or for germany itself.

@Stefan:
Quote:

The hosen are also attached to this armless waistcoat. In this way I can soon undress from body armour and the doublet "without loosing my pants" and cool off quickly after wearing and fighting in the armour. The sources for this solution are sadly lacking (as arming doublets themselves ) but sleeveless doublets in civilian life are common and I can see no reason why people back then would not try to find good working solutions.

Hm, I personally suggest you not to do that. In fact I never came acrioss any hint the legwear was attached to something else than a doublet in that context (of course there are a few other possibilities, like a belt or something, but those are in general exotic or for peasants etc.). In fact the garment "doublet" only works when worn with legwear- you have to have a pull downwards so it stays in place, and the lowe edge does not roll up. The doublet and hose are really a team Wink Also, sleeveless doublets, at least in germany, are very very very uncommon. I only know of two images at all, and very few mentionings in french sources. Several sources also lead to the conclusion, that if you wear a sleevless doublet, a coat has to go over it to cover your groins (exect for working people).

@Chris: I'm not sure what you mean. Those very tight garments you mention are simly civil doublets. They work like a corset, that have to be that way Wink I know of no single image of a loose-fitting doublet.



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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 2:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

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Jens Boerner




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 3:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Reading my first post I have to admit it was somehow too general. With the sleeveless textile armours of the type shown in standal and lubeck we do of course have textile armour, which was worn underneath plate in the early 15th century. However, there are also depictions and effigies showing no such kind of additional armour underneath plate armour pre-1450, and we do not or hardly have that for post-1450. Additionally, the examples pre-1450 sometimes make it hard to judge if a backplate was worn. Some examples clearly show that this was not the case, with the breastplate being tied to the textile armour worn underneath. An image from nuremberg shows a backplate, but no plate skirt (see attachment).
In the time frame between 1350 and 1400 this is even more difficult. In fact from the beginning when maille was worn there are no evidences that it was always combined with textile armour - in this case I like to call it "aketon"- but instead we have many examples of maille being simply worn on top of the normal civil clothing. Even in the 14th century several effigies allow the speculation that the garment being vissible at kneeheight is not quilted. Instead there are also many occurances of textle armour being worn on top of the other armour, being called "jupon" in france.
What I want to say, basically, is: the often citated rule "gambeson goes bellow" simply is not true. And same does apply for an "arming doublet".



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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 4:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some more images of textile armour and quilted garments.


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kamp0094.jpg
Thott 290 2° Kopenhagen, king's library 1459

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1469 ; 1480 ; Wien ; Österreich ; Wien ; Schottenstift  2.JPG
1469 ; 1480 ; Wien ; Österreich ; Wien ; Schottenstift

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1480 ; 1490 ; St. Florian ; Österreich ; Oberösterreich ; Stiftssammlung.JPG
1480 ; 1490 ; St. Florian ; Österreich ; Oberösterreich ; Stiftssammlung
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Jens Boerner




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 4:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Blaz Berlec wrote:

Some images that show garments worn under armour[...]


Blaz, you point out for several images that there are thickly quilted garments, in fact I don't see any. In nearly all cases those can be identified as simple clothing faulds, those are possibly jackets ("Schecken").

See also here: http://gallery.besserlarper.de/main.php?g2_vi...alNumber=2



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falten harnisch.jpg
Zoom from an effigy in Rothenburg ob der Tauber, southern germany
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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 7:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jens Boerner wrote:
Blaz, you point out for several images that there are thickly quilted garments, in fact I don't see any. In nearly all cases those can be identified as simple clothing faulds, those are possibly jackets ("Schecken").


Yes, you may be right. It is of course sometimes hard to know due to badly preserved monument, or because image is too small. This one for instance looks at first glance like a quilted garment. But zoomed in they look more like pleats - they are rounded, stitches in quilted garments are always sharply defined:


1470 Kronenberg, Germany, St Johannis Church, Walter von Reifenberg, image by Andreas Petitjean, Arms and Armour Forum Image Database



1470 Kronenberg, Germany, St Johannis Church, Walter von Reifenberg, image by Andreas Petitjean, Arms and Armour Forum Image Database



This one shows pleats even more clearly. But even so, the decorated garment looks quite substantial, and I don't think this is just due to being carved in stone - if it would be just a simple wool jacket I don't think pleats would stay so well defined under mail:

1472 Saarbrücken, Germany, St. Arnual Church, Count Johann III, image by Andreas Petitjean, Arms and Armour Forum Image Database


1472 Saarbrücken, Germany, St. Arnual Church, Count Johann III, image by Andreas Petitjean, Arms and Armour Forum Image Database


What exactly are jackets ("Schecken") here? Garment worn over doublet but under armour, in colder weather?

Oh, and thanks everybody for contributing to the thread!


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Till J. Lodemann




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Posts: 96
PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 8:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Jens.
I don't agree with you on the use of padding in the 14th century.
There is plenty of evidence that padded subarmour was worn beneath mail and coat of plates in the 14th century.
We cannot be sure whether that was always the cause, but I am inclined to presume it was done more often then not.
That, of cause is an assumption just as yours.
But I'm willing to explain my reasons, too:

- We have some proof that padding under mail as well as under plate does give a serious amount of additional protection.

- We know that padding under armour was used, by written sources and works of art of the period.

Look at these pictures at flickr:

1. Soldiers at the holy sepulchre depicted in the Münster at Freiburg im Breisgau, ca 1340-50:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1638...508791796/

The right soldiers wears a haubergeon with an aketon beneath.

2. An effigy of a knight in Hereford Cathedral, Herefordshire, England ca 1358:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1616...468647900/

We can see the lower ends of coat of arms, coat of plates, mailshirt and aketon neatly showing out.


- Images or effigies that do not show padding underneath the mail and plate are yet no evidence agianst that. They also do not show braies, but we may assume the armoured persons depicted wore them. Big Grin

So a non biased assumption would be that, as we know today, padding under armour was clearly used by knights and other armoured individuals of the period and was beneficial to the protection of it's wearer, it would not be uncommon to wear it.

And as the Lübeck and Stendal garments clearly exist and, as you say it may very well be worn under armour, we have another evidence that padding under plate was not uncommon even in the early 15th century.

All the pictures you posted have one thing in common: they show armour. And they don't show, what was worn beneath.
We cannot strip the persons on the pictures or effegies of ther armour to look what is beneath, all we can do is interpete the evidence we have.
As you stated earlier, you can't proove the absence of something here.
Neither can we prove that padding under armour existed univerally. But we can certainly proove it existed.


Another point I'm curious about: You stated that all of the lines on the skirts showing out under some of the pictures posted can be identified as pleating, can you prove this? I mean if that is merel your understanding of it, okay, but others might interprete it differently with exactly the same right. It would be different if you had really proof of this.

Best regards,

Till


PS: Blaz, just saw your post.

I'm not sure about the first one if you look at the pictures from the lübeck garment by Hammaborg which Thomas posted, you can see that sometimes the stichtes result in fairly broad grooves.
http://www.hammaborg.de/de/bilder_videos/muse.../index.php

look at the fifth from below.

The one from Saarbrücken really looks like pleading though. But I only see to lines of pleading here. The lower edge of the garment also looks like it has some kind of dagging or slashing. Do you have a bigger picture?
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Jens Boerner




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Location: Erlangen, Germany
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Thu 18 Nov, 2010 8:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Till J. Lodemann wrote:
Hey Jens.
I don't agree with you on the use of padding in the 14th century.


I wasnot talking about the 14th century in general, but from about 1360 onwards (of course not in all cases, it depends on the kind of armour used). I know of the evidences for aketons Wink http://www.diu-minnezit.de/1350_aketon.html
Since I'm also reconstruting mid-14th century knightly armour, I'm also reconstructed several textile armour pieces. But nevertheless not all effigies show them, and there are also text sources which lack any mentioning of textile arm at all in the arming process.

All I say is the general rule "no maille without 'padding" is wrong. It should go "in some cases maille and plate was worn combined with textile armour. And it depends".

and

"Post-1350 evidences for textile armour being worn under a full harnesses grow less and less, and in the late 15th century I see no reason and evidence for such a habbit"

Quote:

- We have some proof that padding under mail as well as under plate does give a serious amount of additional protection.

It may be just a thing of english terms, but I cannot stand the word "padding" when I translate it to "Polsterung" as being something soft. I know of no extant quilted garments which are "soft". But nevertheless, I understand the reasons for waring textile armour underneath maille, but what reasons do you know for plate?

Quote:

And as the Lübeck and Stendal garments clearly exist and, as you say it may very well be worn under armour, we have another evidence that padding under plate was not uncommon even in the early 15th century.

In german I would say "jein"- yes and no. We know examples- but I think it is important to identify the situation where it was used. Do you know any examples of full enclosing early 15th century plate armour, with plate skirt, being worn with a textile armour?

Quote:

Another point I'm curious about: You stated that all of the lines on the skirts showing out under some of the pictures posted can be identified as pleating, can you prove this? I mean if that is merel your understanding of it, okay, but others might interprete it differently with exactly the same right. It would be different if you had really proof of this.

Well, there are a lot of images, and effigies, showing those pleats quite clearly. The lower seam is bended, so I see no sign for quilting. When it comes to images I think it is important to look at them either in higher resolution, or in real life; same for effigies, where you have to stand in front of it. Since they are 3D, you can see the pleats very well. I know several effigies which are only a few km from here, so yes, I'm sure.


Last edited by Jens Boerner on Thu 18 Nov, 2010 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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