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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 8:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A couple of more of the period. Actually the rapier is not a standard offering but was a small lot from MRL a couple of years ago. This is another I had used the Silver Secret on. The pommels on these were brass with the steel but the brass accepted the silver solution quite well and after a few more applications has covered the brass quite well. Spiraled horngrip with twisted wire. They did a nice job with this one and although listed as a Ladie's Rapier, is a lot of fun.

The funny little poinard was the real treat though. Although just the butt end of what must had once been quite splendorous, was assembled with some odd parts at one point. While a little different, the stand of arms at the base of the blade is identical to Bashford Dean's example 66. Another difference in the art of it is that it was a truly folded/damscene blade. A little hard for me to photograph/capture that but I could see it in the dealer's pictures. What stories this one might tell is anyone's guess but it was once a part of some quite expensive sword in its day.

http://swordlinks.com/courtswords/p14.html#66

Cheers, just a couple of more aside from these two for the quest here. One la Anglais spadroon that has moved on to another home and another first empire (likely infantry dress) small sword. Ironically (or not) both were from Shiloh Relics and budget priced.. The cut down smallsword was from Chuck of the A2A site.

GC



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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 9:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a Hounslow bladed sword. The hilt looks like the typical French pattern but it could be British I suppose. The blade is definately Britsh. Hounslow. I really thought about getting this but decided at the last minute that it would be "fiscally irresponsible" to do so. It was a very tough decision. Great sword though.


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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So, instead of the Passau Wolf, we see the Hounslow Hound.

Last edited by Roger Hooper on Fri 04 Feb, 2011 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 11:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Or the running fox of Samuel Harvey of Birmingham...
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 11:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No Bouncing Bull of Bath and Wells though.....

Here is a French military rapier from the 1680's that I had never seen before so I thought I would post it.



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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just to clarify, my comment was not in jest.
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 1:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know Jonathan. The jest was all mine. Big Grin No offense intended. So here is a Harvey running fox.


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David Ledoyen




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PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 5:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr, Cleeton,

Where did you find this interesting French mid-18th c. short straigth saber? Question
I have exactly the same. Exclamation

Mine was purchased from a British seller, but it is clearly of French manufacture. One mine too, the sheet brass ferrules and brass wire wrapping are missing.

David Ledoyen

Glen A Cleeton wrote:






GC

David Ledoyen
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David Ledoyen




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PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 5:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr. Butler

By "pas d'ane" (donkey foot print) are you referring to the finger rings? This an erronate 19th c, interpratation of a an earlier term. In fact, the term refers to the shape of bilobate dish on the smalls swords.


Morgan Butler wrote:
Bill,
That 1730's weapon is great! Small swords from the first half of the 18th century are my favorite, I like how the pas de an's are still full and functional. And often the hollowground blades are wider than later in the century.

David Ledoyen
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a strange bird--a basket hilt with a colichemarde blade. I sold it a few years ago but it is so unique I thought it was worth sharing.



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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 6:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Ledoyen wrote:
Mr, Cleeton,

Where did you find this interesting French mid-18th c. short straigth saber? Question
I have exactly the same. Exclamation

Mine was purchased from a British seller, but it is clearly of French manufacture. One mine too, the sheet brass ferrules and brass wire wrapping are missing.

David Ledoyen



Hello David,

I will try for some better pictures of the handle and hilt.. The grip handle had been covered with leather and saddle stitched The pommel has some signs of having been plated, with the possibility a different guard hole had been plugged/brazed. The blade and hilt are a definite mismatch but from the looks of it done quite a long time ago. As mentioned, the blade is cast steel, which is a bit out of the norm but experimented with amongst some of the eastern US makers. Give me a little time for me to upload some more shots (I am on dial up).

I had bought this from a Texas seller who had found the sword in Arkansas. It was one of those rare Ebay moments when something caught my eye and no one was paying attention to it. A visiting friend had made the observation of quite like other French hilts of the time but there were a lot of American cutlers doing stuff at the end of the 18th century. The blade on this is pretty much spot on to the dimensions of the Rose nco examples(just as a note of them).

More up soon. I'd love to see your's for comparison

Cheers

GC
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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 6:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Rose article courtesy of Man At Arms Publishing and thanks to Mark Cloke for sending me the scans. The half counterguard continues to at least the Starr 1818 nco contracts but both the Rose examples noted and the Starr are not quite in the same tune as the earlier European continental hilts. The leather on this has been preserved with Pecard's Leather treatment formulated for antique conservation and sets up quite tight while pinning down some loose tag ends. I love the stuff as it has also swelled tight the leather washer knife handle of a later military type that had once had quite alot of slop and rattle. Good stuff.






These should enlarge ok, I didn't want to make it too wide screen.





Cheers

GC

I guess those article pages didn't exactly translate/compress very well but I believe Mark must have this over at the Old Sword site if interested and I could always send the images I have (or try an upload again but you get the idea)
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David Ledoyen




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PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 7:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First an original epee a la mousquetaire along with a repro.

The original has a long and narrow blade, more typical of officer or maybe NCO swords.







Now a nice original cast brass grip and hilt French infantry sword of the early 18th next to a repro. The repro is based on lead castings from a sword that used to be in the Aries collection.




Next, an original French infantry sword of the late 1740's or 1750"s. Double edged blade.










Blades and hilts comparison:






Sunday, I will post pictures of a grenadier saber, a straigth edged short French saber, and a 1680-1720 French soldier sword. All original pieces.

David Ledoyen
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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 7:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for posting up the comparisons David. Those certainly do look like they were nicely done and actually just what many have been looking at for modern play. one trend that makes me shudder though is an often misunderstood understanding of what these swords were designed for. My biggest quandary with reproductions now is the continuing market of antiques at large. I look at these wonderfully done reproductions and then go back to my watch list. There is a French 1816 cavalry sabre out there for the price projected for these, hence my hesitations (as well as budget constraints anyway). A nice job on these though I think.

Cheers

GC
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 8:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David,
Very, very, very nice to see more Epee du Soldats. Probably my favorite type of sword. I never really appreciated the hilts with the brass cast grips before. I really appreciate them now. Tell me, what do you think of the repro's. Are they any good? Where do the blades come from? P.M. me about it. What is the balance like on the origionals.
I agree that pas de ans is an erronious collecters term. Sometimes I use "arms of the hilt.", sometimes pas de an's. I am familiar with the Donkey Hoove's translation but I didnt know it origionally meant the bilobate guard. I look forward to seeing more pics!

Jonathan, I remember seeing that "bird" before. It is an interesting piece. Thanks for the post.

Glenn, I'm glad you posted more pics of your Rose NCO sword. I like it.

Here is my British Spadroon. It is possible that it is a pre-1796 officers varient. Or else just a varient, or else a varient militia sword. When I asked someone who is quite knowledgable about spadoons, his answer was "Yes!' to all the above possibilities. It definately has an 18th century feel to it. Sort of an English Epee' du Soldat. One of my favorites.



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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 8:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Morgan,

It can be both frustrating and confusing to many when you regard a categorized hilt and English spadroon with a French term for something quite entirely different. Another example is when you describe a "Here is a Hounslow bladed sword" what exactly are you regarding as pertaining to Hounslow? I guess these quirks in conversation can suit one's particular regard but the geographical descriptions in time of the swords would make more sense in calling a spadroon a spadroon, an epee as listed or as a broadsword blade in the more local vernacular of a given piece.

Glenn, I'm glad you posted more pics of your Rose NCO sword. I like it.
I am not sure when I implied it was made by Rose, I simply pointed out a similarity that continued in these types well into the 19th century. If anything, I have been babbling about cast steel blades and tossing in Pettibone in some of these threads.

Cheers

GC
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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 11:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen,
When I write "Sort of an English Epee' du Soldat." It just means that it has aspects that remind me very much of the french sword we were talking about. Thats all. I'm not trying to re-classify the sword. I'm just creatively expressing impressions I get from appreciating that fine weapon. I know its an English Spadroon. Wink But it reminds me of an "English version of an Epee du Soldat." Probably why I like it so very much.

David, I read your earlier thread and found it very interesting. The 18th century in general has become a favorite historical period of mine. I look forward to hearing more from you. I'm about to start reading "Crucible of War" about the French-Indian War. I'm also reading some selected chapters of a excellent book I have about Frederick the Great to learn more about the Seven Years War as it was fought on the European continent.

inkothemgard!
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Gene W




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PostPosted: Sat 05 Feb, 2011 12:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is my favourite sword.
I bought it about 17 years ago. It is 41 1/2 " long overall with a 35" blade (visible edge).
The blade is marked: .S A H A G V N, its a fine blade. The entire piece is darkly mottled, I know many would clean it up, but I kind of like it this way. The hilt is wrapped with silver wire.
Drawing at bottom shows engraved designs on shell guards.
17thC/Early 18thC.











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Morgan Butler




PostPosted: Sat 05 Feb, 2011 12:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the pics of that rapier, Gene. So nice! What a beautiful blade. I bet it is late 17th-early 18th cen.

I promised much earlier to post pics of my custom Transitional Rapier. It was made in the early 90's by Gryphon Armoury.
It has a very plain and understated hilt. Fast and very well balanced. I've put a blunt on it before and fenced with it. It is easily able to parry a heavier blade. These probably aren't the best pics possible.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh272/blac...apier2.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh272/blac...rapier.jpg

inkothemgard!


Last edited by Morgan Butler on Sat 05 Feb, 2011 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Christian G. Cameron




PostPosted: Sat 05 Feb, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Superb!

I love that sword.

I have a virtually identical blade, 1607, Hernando Aguire, in a replacement small sword hilt.

Christian G. Cameron

Qui plus fait, miex vault

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