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Perry L. Goss




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 8:55 am    Post subject: MacKay's Regiment Scot King Adolphus Sweden 1630 blade ?         Reply with quote

In the woodcut for MacKay's Regiment whom served under King Adolphus of Sweden in 1630; matchlocks, bows, belted plaids and other items are shown on the four "Irrlanders".

One thing that has always gotten my curiosity on the general levy troops is what are the blades shown? Although each of the figures is different...each appears to have the same blade. The are not skeans, they are not dirks, they are not broadswords in the traditional sense.

Messers perhaps? Simple grips, no complex hilts, blades appear to be about...18" or so?

Anyone have any thoughts or knowledge on this. Too hot to do much today in the Midwest!

Thank you!
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Gottfried P. Doerler




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 9:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You probably mean the following print.
the text at least

(Original early new-high-german: Es ist ein starckes dauerhafftigs volck behilft sich mit geringer speiß hatt es nicht brodt so essen sie wurtzeln. wans auch die notturfft erfordert können sie des tages über die 20 teutscher meil weges lauffen haben neben musqueden ihre bogen und köcher und lange messer

english: It is a strong durable people, they do not eat much ["aids itself with little food"], do they not have bread so they eat roots, if it is necessary they can run more than 20 german miles in one day, besides their muskets ["musqueden"] they have bows and quivers and long knives)

says, these are knives. probably long utility knives.



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Irish_dress_1600s.jpg

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Perry L. Goss




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 9:59 am    Post subject: that is the print...         Reply with quote

Gottfried:

That is the print. The book I have only lists the top part of the print.

A version of our modern machette?

From your translation and the print, sure looks like it!?

Officer's equipment would "of course", been higher quality.

Thank you
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Daniel Staberg




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 1:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The wood cut does not in anyway represent Mackay's regiment, Mackay's regiment were veterans who hade served with the Danes before transfering to Swedish service and were repeatedly clothed and equipped by both Danes and Swedes in the standard military fashion of the day. Mackay's men would have been indistinguisable from their Swedish and German comrades as far as their apperance is concerned.

The Köler print infact supposedly shows troops landed at Stettin in 1631 when Mackay's regiment was nowhere in the vicinity. The best identification of the troops in the print is Alexander Hamiltons Scots-Irish regiment which was part of the Marquis of Hamiltons 'English' army which landed in Germany in this area at the time. Unlike Mackay's men who were enlisted regulars in the Swedish army these troops were neither properly clothed nor armed which can be seen from the preserved correspondence between Gustavus, Oxenstierna and represenatives of Hamilton.

"There is nothing more hazardous than to venture a battle. One can lose it
by a thousand unforseen circumstances, even when one has thorougly taken all
precautions that the most perfect military skill allows for."
-Fieldmarshal Lennart Torstensson.
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Perry L. Goss




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 3:16 pm    Post subject: setting the record straight....         Reply with quote

Daniel thank you for setting the record straight. The book that I observed that plate in specifically linked the print and MacKay's troops. Alas.

If I may ask, would you have any specific references that I could research on MacKay's regiment?

And it would be great, but doubt I can manage it to view the correspondence of A. Hamilton's reps! Too bad I can not travel to Europe!


Again, thank you
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Thomas Reitmeier




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 3:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have seen this print often in some books. The caption and the text belonging to this print (in some books) it reads as follows: Galloglass or Gallowglass.
But in "The Oxford illustrated history of Tudor & Stuart Britain" the caption called: Highlander from Hamiltons Regiment in the 30th Years War.
And the swords/knives looks like Falchions or a "Dussack" (sometimes "Dusägge").
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Barry C. Hutchins




PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2011 6:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Staberg wrote:
The wood cut does not in anyway represent Mackay's regiment, Mackay's regiment were veterans who hade served with the Danes before transfering to Swedish service and were repeatedly clothed and equipped by both Danes and Swedes in the standard military fashion of the day. Mackay's men would have been indistinguisable from their Swedish and German comrades as far as their apperance is concerned.

The Köler print infact supposedly shows troops landed at Stettin in 1631 when Mackay's regiment was nowhere in the vicinity. The best identification of the troops in the print is Alexander Hamiltons Scots-Irish regiment which was part of the Marquis of Hamiltons 'English' army which landed in Germany in this area at the time. Unlike Mackay's men who were enlisted regulars in the Swedish army these troops were neither properly clothed nor armed which can be seen from the preserved correspondence between Gustavus, Oxenstierna and represenatives of Hamilton.



Given that the woodcut represents Hamilton's troops... how accurate is the portrayal thought to be for the time period of 1631?
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Daniel Staberg




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PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2011 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: setting the record straight....         Reply with quote

Perry L. Goss wrote:
Daniel thank you for setting the record straight. The book that I observed that plate in specifically linked the print and MacKay's troops. Alas.

If I may ask, would you have any specific references that I could research on MacKay's regiment?

And it would be great, but doubt I can manage it to view the correspondence of A. Hamilton's reps! Too bad I can not travel to Europe!


Again, thank you

The best modern source in English is James Fallon's fine Phd thesis "Scottish mercenaries in the service of Denmark and Sweden, 1626-1632" from 1973 which is available as a free pdf from the university of Glasgow http://theses.gla.ac.uk/941/

There is of course Robert Monros own 1637 history of the regiment "Monro, His expedition with the worthy Scots regiment (called Mac-Keyes regiment)" which is free on google books http://books.google.se/books?id=KMpFAAAAcAAJ&...mp;f=false

There is still a lot of errors in print about the Scottish troops in Swedish service, mostly due to the the less than thorough work of Victorian historians who could not or would breach the language barrier in order to access the extensive Swedish archives but instead relied on their own interpretations of a limited number of sources. A classic example of this is how regiments are misidentifed as "Scottish" simply due to having a Scottish commander. In fact Gustavus employed a large number of professional scottish soldiers as officers both in Swedish and German regiments. The most famous example is Hepburn who commanded the Green regiment, english language histories about which stories fo how this unit was Scottish and got the name from the green tartan kilts & plaids worn by the highlanders in the regiment. In reality the Green regiment were Germans from a Brandenburg regiment which prefered to enter Swedish service rather than serve alongside the Polish army when cornered by the Swedes in East Prussia in 1627. Since then it had been kept up to strenght with replacements from East Prussia as well as out of work veterans discharged from the Polish army when it disbanded it's hired German troops.

"There is nothing more hazardous than to venture a battle. One can lose it
by a thousand unforseen circumstances, even when one has thorougly taken all
precautions that the most perfect military skill allows for."
-Fieldmarshal Lennart Torstensson.
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Perry L. Goss




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PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2011 5:30 am    Post subject: sources cited...         Reply with quote

Daniel:

Thank you for the links!
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