Christian,
Wow. Just wow :eek:
That is awesome; it inspires me to get a classical kit together!
Oh, and alway good to see an Australian. I never knew what he looked like, but methinks a Hopite suits his hair.
...
I wonder if the Ancient Greeks had hair extensions? I've currently got a shaved head (and no beard to speak of) and it wouldn't look right without long-locks that Odysseus would be pround of! :lol:
| Christian G. Cameron wrote: |
| [ Linked Image ]
My 490 BCE Greek harness. Helmet is by Joe Piela, raised form one piece, and fits perfectly--has to be slightly deformed to get on my head, and then stayes... greaves by Aurora Simmons of Toronto. Also perfect fit--I ran the hoplitodromos in them. Scale thorax by me. (Beams with pride). Repousse by me, as well. Aspis by me... four layers of ash splits with a bulls hide and bronze cover. [ Linked Image ] And finally--the battle line at Marathon, 4 weeks ago... [ Linked Image ] You can just see me at the right end of the line. We're 4 deep! The chap in the superb attic helmet with his cheek flaps up is Craig Sitch of Manning Imperial... |
O.O CRAIG!!!!???? thats him... wow... im still gawking at the $29,000 Gothic harness that he has for sale.
and fuming at the fact he NEVER lists how heavy his items are on the shop website.... [/rant over]
out of curiosity how much did your aspis weigh.
sam gordon, while i cant get a classical kit together im going to fight tooth and nail to be able to be present for the marathon reenactment at wisemans ferry in NSW... as a persian archer.
| Sam Gordon Campbell wrote: |
| Christian,
Wow. Just wow :eek: That is awesome; it inspires me to get a classical kit together! Oh, and alway good to see an Australian. I never knew what he looked like, but methinks a Hopite suits his hair. ... I wonder if the Ancient Greeks had hair extensions? I've currently got a shaved head (and no beard to speak of) and it wouldn't look right without long-locks that Odysseus would be pround of! :lol: |
I agree that is an awesome kit and the group shot " Marathon battle line " should put to shame " the normally mediocre Hollywood Movie costuming.
Australian ? :confused: Doesn't his profile say Toronto Canada ? Although Canada and Australia have a lot in common they are rather far away from each other. ;) :lol:
EDITED: Oh, you meant Craig Sitch from Manning Imperial who is Australian. :blush: :lol:
Shaved head, me too, but I guess you could cheat with a good quality wig ? ( I would guess that there where some bald Greeks even if not by choice. :p :lol: :cool: )
I'm recruiting for Marathon 2014. So please, join someone if you want to make a kit. Long hair not required!
My aspis weighs about 11 pounds. I just put up a "making it" piece for comparison. I think it is really "right" but I'm ready to hear criticisms.
My aspis weighs about 11 pounds. I just put up a "making it" piece for comparison. I think it is really "right" but I'm ready to hear criticisms.
Like Christian, I'll be returning for Marathon in 2014, and would like to say that everyone was born with incredibly authentic Greek kit :) A huge investment will not be required to participate.
To some of the comments:
Jean wrote:
"Very nice kit and armour coverage was probably very good with the huge shield but I see that the thigh above the knee not protected by the shield would be a good target and somewhat vulnerable.
Greaves would protect the lower leg in many cases but the upper left leg is more vulnerable as it would tend to be closer and easier to hit than the lower leg .... at least with a short sword in close combat. "
The shield is great coverage, I really need greaves, and the thigh really is exposed. The interesting detail is that it's exposed in the period too. Thigh and arm armour does exist in the 6th century art, but by the end of the century it's on its way out. Probably by the time of Marathon at least some of the promachoi had full bronze arms and leg armour, but looking at the art I'd put my money on their being the exception as opposed to the rule.
So the big question is why? William is right in pointing to the drape as extra protection, as it does appear at the end of the 6th Century BCE, but again its a statistical exception as opposed to a rule.
The prevailing theory is that as the phalanx tightened up as a formation the need for armour decreased. That said, if you bend your legs to match the stances in the art the thigh is well protected by the shield. Certainly if you follow Tyrtaeus' proscription for the promachoi to close with their opponents and stand fast, pressing shield to shield and crest to crest, and fighting and killing , then the thighs will be protected by posture and proximity.
I like your comment about putting the movies to shame... Here's another shot from the beach at Marathon that does the same :)
Attachment: 131.08 KB
The phalanx formed up on Sxinias beach where the Battle of the Ships happened at Marathon. [ Download ]
To some of the comments:
Jean wrote:
"Very nice kit and armour coverage was probably very good with the huge shield but I see that the thigh above the knee not protected by the shield would be a good target and somewhat vulnerable.
Greaves would protect the lower leg in many cases but the upper left leg is more vulnerable as it would tend to be closer and easier to hit than the lower leg .... at least with a short sword in close combat. "
The shield is great coverage, I really need greaves, and the thigh really is exposed. The interesting detail is that it's exposed in the period too. Thigh and arm armour does exist in the 6th century art, but by the end of the century it's on its way out. Probably by the time of Marathon at least some of the promachoi had full bronze arms and leg armour, but looking at the art I'd put my money on their being the exception as opposed to the rule.
So the big question is why? William is right in pointing to the drape as extra protection, as it does appear at the end of the 6th Century BCE, but again its a statistical exception as opposed to a rule.
The prevailing theory is that as the phalanx tightened up as a formation the need for armour decreased. That said, if you bend your legs to match the stances in the art the thigh is well protected by the shield. Certainly if you follow Tyrtaeus' proscription for the promachoi to close with their opponents and stand fast, pressing shield to shield and crest to crest, and fighting and killing , then the thighs will be protected by posture and proximity.
I like your comment about putting the movies to shame... Here's another shot from the beach at Marathon that does the same :)
Attachment: 131.08 KBThe phalanx formed up on Sxinias beach where the Battle of the Ships happened at Marathon. [ Download ]
N. Cloran: That last pic is not only awesome but also incredibly beautiful with all the colours on shields and helm crests.
Many of us have our times, places, nationality, and types of harness we like, but honestly even those we don't like are still incredibly awesome when done right. ;) I don't and didn't have any real interest in a Greek outfit, but I'm still impressed by seeing all those guys in kit. Looks like the real deal...
Christian
I echo Colts and our other fellow forumites praise, outstanding impressions and fantastic photos. Thanks for sharing.
best wishes
Dave
I echo Colts and our other fellow forumites praise, outstanding impressions and fantastic photos. Thanks for sharing.
best wishes
Dave
Colt--late 14th c. Italy will always be my first love.m Ancient Greece--not my fav kit--still has some sort of miraculous "gestalt" where one set of kit is okay, but fifty are beyond amazing...
| Christian G. Cameron wrote: |
| Colt--late 14th c. Italy will always be my first love.m Ancient Greece--not my fav kit--still has some sort of miraculous "gestalt" where one set of kit is okay, but fifty are beyond amazing... |
thats becase ONE it is good, but its rare at reenactment events thats why those 6 vendel period guys who look like 6 long dead saxon kings stepped outof a time machine, are so amazing, its because you have such a concentration of awsomeness.
the fact that in any reenactment group you (im speclating here) will probably only get a small handful, one in 10 or 20 members who have those REALLY well done up,and stunningly executed kits.
theres a joke going around my group of this guy in eastern europe who has earned, in equal measure, the ire and the admiration of us because not only is he supposedly reenacting n every major historical period but that he does it inexplicably well being shown in 4 horse chariots, him and his friends holding a ball at some major palace i think it might have been czech or polish i can remember, in baroque outfit, and again, stunningly WELL DONE
William--it may be so. But I do three periods, and I've seen the ne plus ultra of each. And while my favorite remains seeing a thousand British regulars in 1778, fifty Greek hoplites--all different, all individually kitted, yet all together--is, somehow, deeply moving.
Anyway... must get my head out of Marathon...
Anyway... must get my head out of Marathon...
This is my revised late 13th C kit, tell me what you guys think. I'm always trying to find ways to improve it. By the way, please ignore the hobbit in the corner. he was just a visitor's child who thought it would be cool to get in the shot with a knight. Six is a great age to become aquainted with reenactment.
In the second pic is my squire and I. He wanted to start training in a great helm. He's 13 and asked his parents for a greathelm for Christmas. They said he had to try it out for a while before they would get him one, so I lent him a spare that I have.
In the second pic is my squire and I. He wanted to start training in a great helm. He's 13 and asked his parents for a greathelm for Christmas. They said he had to try it out for a while before they would get him one, so I lent him a spare that I have.
Well my daughter wanted to start her kit with Taking some pieces of my kit! lol...well here she is sporting her merc tailor sallet
That is awsome! I can't wait to have kids of my own.
| Christopher VaughnStrever wrote: |
| Well my daughter wanted to start her kit with Taking some pieces of my kit! lol...well here she is sporting her merc tailor sallet
|
That's so CUTE. :lol: :cool:
The second pic from the back sort of reminds me of " DARK HELMET " in the Mel Brooks movie " SPACEBALLS ", Star Wars parody: Not too surprising since Darth Vader's helmet is obviously inspired by German Sallets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceballs
Dark Helmet:
http://www.google.ca/search?q=dark+helmet+cos...mp;bih=984
Laughed really hard.
were is that helmet going with that litle girl XD
| Justin Lee Hunt wrote: |
| This is my revised late 13th C kit, tell me what you guys think. I'm always trying to find ways to improve it. |
If you're looking to improve it, I'd suggest the following (Assuming you're going for a very late 13c persona given the sugarloaf). NB this would be based on our standards for the UK re-enactment scene - and probably far more picky than you want to be - so obviously tailor it for your own aims and just take what you want from it:
Surcoat
One of the biggest - most stand-out parts of kit for the period (and often most commonly open to improvement!) - so I'll mention this first.
The biggest problem here is the lack of side joins. You should really be aiming for something that is more like a tunic without sleeves. It should have a fullness in the skirt (from gores) and fairly small holes for the arms (but sometimes with a tie under each arm making it easier to dress). There should definately not be a side split in the skirt part and waist.
Hard to say from the picture - but is it wool? If so, those velvet-looking shield designs don't fit well. I'd stick with the same material - it just looks more 'consistent'. On colour, the blue looks too deep for me and suggests a colour only possible from modern chemical dyes. Woad would give a softer (and very slightly greenish-tinged) colour. The red on those shields would also be too deep too.
For heraldry, for English arms, you should go for colour-on-metal or metal-on-colour (but I believe colour-on-colour is ok for many mainland European countries). I just think the English rules make it stand out more.
I'd also suggest a lining inside the surcoat of a contrasting colour.
Ailettes
I don't think I've ever seen them 'shield-shape' before. In period pics, the'yre usually rectangular. For very late 13c they should mirror the coat of arms on your surcoat and shield. Nice to see them included though!
Armour
If you're determined to do 13c as opposed to 14c, then it's all about mail, mail and more mail. Even at the very end of the 13c, the vast majority of armour depicted in manuscript images shows full mail arms, legs and feet.. here's a pic of one of our guys (early-mid 13c) - http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/Dawn...nt=030.jpg For late 13c armour, this should just be a start-point for you - but also include gamboised cuisses + poleyn, coat of plates and optionally, couters/shynbald.
Should also have a gamby under that mail.
Accessories
Period shoes (but I guess you know that!) and as mentioned above - covered with mail).
For the belt, go for a narrow belt with a nice period buckle+strap. The seperate sword-belt of the period should be thicker, buckled and richly decorated with cast studs/bars - and fixed correctly to the scabbard (belt+scabbard being in fact one item). To get right though, it will be expensive.. (one of the reasons we do mid-13 rather than late)
As I say, take from it what you want from that. I don't say the above in criticism because I understand that everyone has different goals as to what they want to achieve, and are at different points along their path to achieving it. Good luck on your journey.
I would make one comment though. You seem to want to include items of plate (greaves.wrists etc.). Are you sure 13c is the right period for you as opposed to early 14c?
I found Brian's post to be very informative and I certainly hope someone can give me similar pointers when I finally get around to posting a pic of my kit.
| Brian Robson wrote: | ||
If you're looking to improve it, I'd suggest the following (Assuming you're going for a very late 13c persona given the sugarloaf). NB this would be based on our standards for the UK re-enactment scene - and probably far more picky than you want to be - so obviously tailor it for your own aims and just take what you want from it: Surcoat One of the biggest - most stand-out parts of kit for the period (and often most commonly open to improvement!) - so I'll mention this first. The biggest problem here is the lack of side joins. You should really be aiming for something that is more like a tunic without sleeves. It should have a fullness in the skirt (from gores) and fairly small holes for the arms (but sometimes with a tie under each arm making it easier to dress). There should definately not be a side split in the skirt part and waist. Hard to say from the picture - but is it wool? If so, those velvet-looking shield designs don't fit well. I'd stick with the same material - it just looks more 'consistent'. On colour, the blue looks too deep for me and suggests a colour only possible from modern chemical dyes. Woad would give a softer (and very slightly greenish-tinged) colour. The red on those shields would also be too deep too. For heraldry, for English arms, you should go for colour-on-metal or metal-on-colour (but I believe colour-on-colour is ok for many mainland European countries). I just think the English rules make it stand out more. I'd also suggest a lining inside the surcoat of a contrasting colour. Ailettes I don't think I've ever seen them 'shield-shape' before. In period pics, the'yre usually rectangular. For very late 13c they should mirror the coat of arms on your surcoat and shield. Nice to see them included though! Armour If you're determined to do 13c as opposed to 14c, then it's all about mail, mail and more mail. Even at the very end of the 13c, the vast majority of armour depicted in manuscript images shows full mail arms, legs and feet.. here's a pic of one of our guys (early-mid 13c) - http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/Dawn...nt=030.jpg For late 13c armour, this should just be a start-point for you - but also include gamboised cuisses + poleyn, coat of plates and optionally, couters/shynbald. Should also have a gamby under that mail. Accessories Period shoes (but I guess you know that!) and as mentioned above - covered with mail). For the belt, go for a narrow belt with a nice period buckle+strap. The seperate sword-belt of the period should be thicker, buckled and richly decorated with cast studs/bars - and fixed correctly to the scabbard (belt+scabbard being in fact one item). To get right though, it will be expensive.. (one of the reasons we do mid-13 rather than late) As I say, take from it what you want from that. I don't say the above in criticism because I understand that everyone has different goals as to what they want to achieve, and are at different points along their path to achieving it. Good luck on your journey. I would make one comment though. You seem to want to include items of plate (greaves.wrists etc.). Are you sure 13c is the right period for you as opposed to early 14c? |
I thank you for your help. This kit here is the middle point in my converting my early 14c kit into a late 13c. Curently in the works are a pair of schynbalds, which should be finished early in the spring (I don't have much time to work on the things I enjoy), and a pair of the cuisses to match the gambeson that I have, but chose not to wear since we were going to go hiking in the woods for the next location on the shoot. I was goining to add an attached poleyn to the edge of them. I have had problems finding maille leggings for my hight, I am 6ft. 2in. (roughly 188cm). I was considering cutting off a pair of standard size and attaching them at the knee of the cuisses. I am looking for a person that can make me a pair of maille sabatons. I need them for a size 13 US (12 UK) But I still havent found anyone I trust yet. My next larger investment is a full sleeve, knee length hauberk. I am adding laces around the wrist so that the plates on the gauntlets will be covered. The surcote is the first non-heraldic surcote that I have ever been photographed in. I will include a pic af the surcote that I usually wear, the ailettes match it.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii234/SirDidymous/IMG_1476.jpg
The Heraldry is from Germany, and traveled with the family to England (http://www.orderoftherouseclan.org/Sir-Didymous-LaRoth-s-Info.html) for the story. And as to the shield-shaped ailettes, I found a miniature that I think appears to be just that very thing. I'll include it as well. Thier shields in this appear to be slung across the back and there seems to be shield shaped ailettes worn on the left arm.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii234/SirDidymous/166-1.jpg
I could be mistaken since this is a later period. But there have been visual representation of many shapes of ailette, and with no surviving examples to say I'm way off, I'm willing to go out on a limb and wear them anyhow. Thanks though.
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