| Author |
Message |
Daniel Wallace
Location: Pennsylvania USA Joined: 07 Aug 2011
Posts: 580
|
 Posted: Thu 01 Dec, 2011 3:38 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
yes he's world champion, but of what? best in the world? ok maybe he's got a longer history with jousting everyone in the world and we haven't seen him do that - but maybe he's using that as a challenge.
'Frog mouthed jousting helmets attached to the breastplate would stop all a good number of the concussions the competitors keep giving each other.' i was thinking the same thing Tom, i didn't see the one part where the visor was jiggled around, but i did see was the shot where mr Andrews got his head twisted around when he took a lance to the face. that just screams broken neck.
we haven't seen much about their armour, it's made to look the part, but is it made to fit the part? clearly if you don't have some kind of lining or suspension within the helm it makes me wonder.
|
|
  |
 |
Ian S LaSpina
|
| Posted: Thu 01 Dec, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Daniel Wallace wrote: |
we haven't seen much about their armour, it's made to look the part, but is it made to fit the part? clearly if you don't have some kind of lining or suspension within the helm it makes me wonder. |
It seems they often casually wear each other's armour as well, which is a huge no-no if you want it to function as... well... armour. I can see wearing someone else's suit for the experience of it and maybe even some horsemanship training, but if you're going to get hit in it, it better fit properly, or it's just as liable to injure you as the lance it's supposed to defeat. On one of the previous episodes, one of the rookies shows off the bruises on the underside of his arms after his first go in the list. They looked like armour bites to me, which you shouldn't get if it fits properly.
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest
"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
|
|
|
|
|
|
William P
|
| Posted: Mon 12 Dec, 2011 1:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ian S LaSpina wrote: | | Daniel Wallace wrote: |
we haven't seen much about their armour, it's made to look the part, but is it made to fit the part? clearly if you don't have some kind of lining or suspension within the helm it makes me wonder. |
It seems they often casually wear each other's armour as well, which is a huge no-no if you want it to function as... well... armour. I can see wearing someone else's suit for the experience of it and maybe even some horsemanship training, but if you're going to get hit in it, it better fit properly, or it's just as liable to injure you as the lance it's supposed to defeat. On one of the previous episodes, one of the rookies shows off the bruises on the underside of his arms after his first go in the list. They looked like armour bites to me, which you shouldn't get if it fits properly. |
interesingly enough i learnt that even the universe of dungeons and dragons knows and enforces this fact
the rule is that a full plate suit is made to fit you and is unique to the person who commissioned it, also, armour is purchased as being a certain size catagory to wear another persons armour it has to match your size,
and if you find the fullplate as loot on an enemy or in a cache you need to modify it to fit you, and it has to already be of the same size category, other armour just need to be of the same size category.
interesting all around
that said i can understand a rookie, who might not yet have a harness, borrowing some for a show.
as for jousting as a sport on TV,
one thing i kep getting reminded of is that we still have a romantic fascination with the knights as a modern society
if one was able to tap into that sufficiently youd get a good result.
|
|
 |
|
Jean Thibodeau
|
| Posted: Mon 12 Dec, 2011 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| William P wrote: | [
interesingly enough i learnt that even the universe of dungeons and dragons knows and enforces this fact
the rule is that a full plate suit is made to fit you and is unique to the person who commissioned it, also, armour is purchased as being a certain size catagory to wear another persons armour it has to match your size,
and if you find the fullplate as loot on an enemy or in a cache you need to modify it to fit you, and it has to already be of the same size category, other armour just need to be of the same size category.
|
I agree that plate made to your measurements are the best, but generic of the shelf armour can be adequate if there are sizes available close to your body shape.
Maybe some dimensions are more critical to some parts of the armour than others ? For example leg armour that is way to long or way to short will bind or lock up when you try to move. If the diameters of the leg armour are such that your calves are 18" in diameter but the greaves are 15" in diameter they will be impossible to wear at all and too loose they will flop around and rotate on the limbs.
Another issue about fit with armour is how well the pieces fit relative to each other: A too big a bevor for example not working well with a too small for it sallet for example. Or a gorget supposed to fit under the breast plates being too big !
So unless the pieces are also fitted to work with each other they won't work well at all even if they are generally of the correct size for your body.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Patrick Kelly
|
| Posted: Mon 12 Dec, 2011 10:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I watched one episode. "Tilting with Trailer Trash" would be a better title.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
|
|
 |
|
|
William P
|
| Posted: Mon 12 Dec, 2011 11:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | William P wrote: | [
interesingly enough i learnt that even the universe of dungeons and dragons knows and enforces this fact
the rule is that a full plate suit is made to fit you and is unique to the person who commissioned it, also, armour is purchased as being a certain size catagory to wear another persons armour it has to match your size,
and if you find the fullplate as loot on an enemy or in a cache you need to modify it to fit you, and it has to already be of the same size category, other armour just need to be of the same size category.
|
I agree that plate made to your measurements are the best, but generic of the shelf armour can be adequate if there are sizes available close to your body shape.
Maybe some dimensions are more critical to some parts of the armour than others ? For example leg armour that is way to long or way to short will bind or lock up when you try to move. If the diameters of the leg armour are such that your calves are 18" in diameter but the greaves are 15" in diameter they will be impossible to wear at all and too loose they will flop around and rotate on the limbs.
Another issue about fit with armour is how well the pieces fit relative to each other: A too big a bevor for example not working well with a too small for it sallet for example. Or a gorget supposed to fit under the breast plates being too big !
So unless the pieces are also fitted to work with each other they won't work well at all even if they are generally of the correct size for your body. |
which explains why in D&D if you find someone elses fukllplate and its in your rough size catagory, you need to modify it to fit you
| Quote: | Full Plate
The suit includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and a thick layer of padding that is worn underneath the armor. Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4×100) gold pieces. |
the idea is that fullplate is unique to YOUR body, in D&D my understanding is that fullplate is a single panoply, you cant really mix and match the different parts.
D&D is odd when they classify armour http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm
when you get a 'breastplate' the rules say " It comes with a helmet and greaves. " 'greaves, i think also inherently include sabatons, possibly depending on the type of greaves
since full plate includes greaves,
gauntlets i think are actually classified as weapons and dont actually have an armour value which is wierd
fullplate includes greaves (or heavy leather boots, but im told greaves) a visored helmet, in addition to padding which means you get the padding in addition to the rest of the armour
though D&D doesnt try and distinguish the armour value of individual plate elements. you cant wear a helmet, and a padded jack for example,
another example is that 'chain shirt' comes with a steel cap automatically.
i also bridled at the fact that the buckler is described as a 'strap to your arm shield' when we all know its a fist shield held in one hand.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sean O Stevens
Location: Grovetown, GA Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 208
|
| Posted: Mon 12 Dec, 2011 11:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If your expecting anything close to accuracy in armor and weapons from D&D... your going to be very frustrated. I've played RPGs for 20 years now... and one of the first things I have to do with most such games is alter the way they do weapons and armor.
As to the KoM... I think Chad pretty well summed up my feelings. I was hopefully.. upon watching, I was disappointed.
|
|
 |
|
Michael Curl
Location: Northern California, US Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 487
|
|
|
|
|
|
Matthew P. Adams
|
| Posted: Tue 13 Dec, 2011 9:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | I watched one episode. "Tilting with Trailer Trash" would be a better title. |
Fox Network owns Nat Geo. I tried to watch some of there "nature documentaries" on net flix but with titles like "Predators at War" I just gave up. Its sat to see National Geographic dragged down like this. : (
|
|
|
|
|
|
Zac Evans
|
| Posted: Tue 13 Dec, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
I agree that plate made to your measurements are the best, but generic of the shelf armour can be adequate if there are sizes available close to your body shape.
Maybe some dimensions are more critical to some parts of the armour than others ? For example leg armour that is way to long or way to short will bind or lock up when you try to move. If the diameters of the leg armour are such that your calves are 18" in diameter but the greaves are 15" in diameter they will be impossible to wear at all and too loose they will flop around and rotate on the limbs.
|
For most applications you are correct. When the forces involved are generated by a human being, your armour needn't be bespoke made to measure top of the range equipment. It wasn't always in period, and it needn't be now. It's just not that much force being generated to necessitate that expenditure.
Start factoring in closing speeds of up to 40mph, and without the top of the range equipment, you're gonna end up getting hurt or killed. In period, people spent money on jousting armour. Big money. Some guys had whole new armours made specially for jousting. It takes a whole other level of craftsmanship.
The Knights of Mayhem have proved that their armour is not up to the task. For every injury they describe, I could relate a story about another jouster who in the same circumstances was saved by well made armour. For every problem they have, I could point you to an historical armour/item of tack that would prevent that from even being a problem.
So yeah. Got a bit long there, but for jousting, you want bespoke armour, because that's what they had in period. For foot combat, you can go for either, because that's what they did in period.
|
|
|
|
|
James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
|
| Posted: Wed 14 Dec, 2011 5:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
Charlie Andrews is a stolen valor guy so right off the bat that would kill any interest I have in the show because I don't want to support such people.
Second looking at clips of it online before it came out all I see is chest thumping, dick waving, and rumor mill bitching about the other guys. Why would I want to watch 20 minutes of that for 5 minutes of jousting?
Lastly I am more interested in seeing something historical not guys in poorly made armor hitting each other with pine dowels from home depot.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
|
|
 |
|
|
Job Overbeek
|
| Posted: Wed 14 Dec, 2011 8:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| James Barker wrote: | Charlie Andrews is a stolen valor guy so right off the bat that would kill any interest I have in the show because I don't want to support such people.
Second looking at clips of it online before it came out all I see is chest thumping, dick waving, and rumor mill bitching about the other guys. Why would I want to watch 20 minutes of that for 5 minutes of jousting?
Lastly I am more interested in seeing something historical not guys in poorly made armor hitting each other with pine dowels from home depot. |
What is a 'stolen valor guy' ?
|
|
|
|
|
Jeffrey Hedgecock
Industry Professional
Location: Ramona CA USA Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 129
|
|
|
|
|
Daniel Wallace
Location: Pennsylvania USA Joined: 07 Aug 2011
Posts: 580
|
| Posted: Wed 14 Dec, 2011 3:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
well the series ended and it came down to what i expected charlie vs patrick. though it was interesting to see other people joining in by that time.
now i'm wondering what happened to that history channel idea that was discussed here a few months back? that's the show i was anticipating was it airing on one of their international networks?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Fults
|
| Posted: Wed 14 Dec, 2011 4:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The stolen valor bit is somehow not surprising given the brief glimpses of the behavior I caught flipping through the show. It totally fits with the untrustworthy impression of his character that his show imparted to me.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
|
|
|
|
|
|
Phillip Oliver
Location: Franklin, VA Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 16
|
| Posted: Wed 14 Dec, 2011 4:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | I watched one episode. "Tilting with Trailer Trash" would be a better title. |
That. Is. Perfect!
I laughed harder than I should have. The follies of tough-guys and wanna-be heros makes me smile every time.
There is only one way to Valhalla
|
|
 |
|
|
William P
|
| Posted: Wed 14 Dec, 2011 8:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| James Barker wrote: | Charlie Andrews is a stolen valor guy so right off the bat that would kill any interest I have in the show because I don't want to support such people.
Second looking at clips of it online before it came out all I see is chest thumping, dick waving, and rumor mill bitching about the other guys. Why would I want to watch 20 minutes of that for 5 minutes of jousting?
Lastly I am more interested in seeing something historical not guys in poorly made armor hitting each other with pine dowels from home depot. |
whjile i assume mudslinging wouldnt have happened quite so often (or maybe it did)
what info do we have to describe how the period jousts went along especially in terms opf how the jousters interacted with one another
|
|
|
|
|
|
Emil Andersson
|
| Posted: Wed 14 Dec, 2011 9:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| William P wrote: |
whjile i assume mudslinging wouldnt have happened quite so often (or maybe it did)
what info do we have to describe how the period jousts went along especially in terms opf how the jousters interacted with one another |
The late Oakeshott talks a little bit about medieval tournaments in his book "Sword in Hand", where it goes something like this:
"This was the Golden Age of the tournament, for much pageantry was involved, and much gallantry."
...
"...and though formality and organisation took away little of their warlike character, tournaments were jolly and glamorous affairs where knights fought each other 'on foaming horse, with swords and friendly hearts'..."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Zac Evans
|
| Posted: Thu 15 Dec, 2011 1:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Considering you could get thrown out of a tournament for disrespecting a lady, or repeatedly beaten and shamed, the behaviour would have been quite a bit more respectful. As for stolen valour? If they found out you weren't who you said you were, then all of the knights there gathered would publicly beat you until it was deemed by the dukes that you had learned your lesson.
The book of the tournament by renee of anjou is a good place to find out more about this stuff, but essentially you trash talked by being humble in words and frickin awesome in the lists. Some knights payed for heralds to tell people how good they were, but to say it yourself was unseemly.
|
|
|
|
|
James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
|
| Posted: Thu 15 Dec, 2011 4:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| William P wrote: | | James Barker wrote: | Charlie Andrews is a stolen valor guy so right off the bat that would kill any interest I have in the show because I don't want to support such people.
Second looking at clips of it online before it came out all I see is chest thumping, dick waving, and rumor mill bitching about the other guys. Why would I want to watch 20 minutes of that for 5 minutes of jousting?
Lastly I am more interested in seeing something historical not guys in poorly made armor hitting each other with pine dowels from home depot. |
whjile i assume mudslinging wouldnt have happened quite so often (or maybe it did)
what info do we have to describe how the period jousts went along especially in terms opf how the jousters interacted with one another |
I think you are mixing two of my points together.
1) I am interested in seeing more historical presentation in the form of armor, saddles, barding, weapons, and clothing.
2) I am also not interested in 20 minutes of these guys acting like 14 year old girls whining and complaining about one another for 5 minutes of jousting. This is not about history this is about how I don't care about their real houseviesesk melodrama.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is a standard topic