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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Darksword Armory, Weapon Edge, World-Wide Swords.. et al Reply to topic
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Eyal Azerad




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Nathan,

It is very unfortunate that it has come to this as we obviously have two very conflicting point of view and seem to recall the events very differently.

I personally donít think it does anyone any good to keep arguing.I will simply leave it at that.

Eyal Azerad
Darksword Armory Inc.
www.darksword-armory.com
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F. Portman




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2012 9:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eyal, with all the goodwill there is, and meaning no slight to you whatsoever, I find it extraordinary that you would visit this thread, with its specific and well-documented discussion of a customer's experience with poor quality control from Darksword Armory, and choose to comment only on your own past history of signing up for accounts and so forth.
Thou needest not to look at it. 'Tis even as thou seest, the leg is off.
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J. Hargis




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson said:
Quote:
You were a member of the Industry Pro group years ago and the membership was revoked because you attacked members, insulted me and other moderators, and repeatedly broke the rules of the site. You were given several passes and multiple opportunities to remedy the situation and decided instead to escalate it. You were given a very clear explanation and you were involved in the process as it happened. I normally would respect your privacy and not disclose this publicly, but since you've opted to paint me as a person who mysteriously terminated your industry professional status, I feel compelled to clarify the situation.


In addition, I would hope that myArmoury.com has quality-of-products-critieria concerning which manufacturers they allow in their Makers and Manufacturers Talk. Notice that Eyal has not taken the opportunity to address the clearly sub-par products that Darksword produces, as shown in my recent posts here ... with photos. Those posts clearly attest to DSA' s lack of quality.

Thanks, Jon
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J. Hargis wrote:
In addition, I would hope that myArmoury.com has quality-of-products-critieria concerning which manufacturers they allow in their Makers and Manufacturers Talk.


We pre-vet the makers consider multiple criteria.

Quote:
Notice that Eyal has not taken the opportunity to address the clearly sub-par products that Darksword produces, as shown in my recent posts here ... with photos. Those posts clearly attest to DSA' s lack of quality.


It doesn't quite show that. It shows a lack of quality for the specific items shown. It must be inferred that this applies to their entire product line. Such assumptions are likely unfair without a much larger data set.

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J. Hargis




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2012 8:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

N. Robinson said:
Quote:
It doesn't quite show that. It shows a lack of quality for the specific items shown. It must be inferred that this applies to their entire product line. Such assumptions are likely unfair without a much larger data set.

Logically and statistically speaking, a correct line of thought. But quality failure on two separate, and my only orders with DSA, combined with the posts I have reviewed in this thread and elsewhere, combined with the PMs I have received here tell me all that I need to know about Darksword Armory's lack of quality.

- Jon
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Brandt Giese




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have remained silent on this topic until now even though I was and am still disappointed with the products i received from Darksword. There are a couple reasons for this the first is Eyal tried to correct the situation. The second is I did not pay much. Here is my story of Darksword.

I was new to collecting and had already put money down an a Baron and had received a Hanwei Sword. I wanted a dagger and started looking. I read a review on SBG about how good the Darksword was so I checked them out. They had a deal for a free dagger with sword purchase so I jumped on the knightly combo. Darksword's website really had me excited and I looked forward to their arrival more so than the Baron which ended up arriving a day before. Darksword's package arrived and I was shocked by how it was packaged. Bubble wrap with gobs of shipping tape entombed the sword and dagger. It took a lot of effort to free the blades and scabbards and when they were free I felt a major wave a disappointment surge through me. The Dagger's hilt was loose and both the dagger and sword had minor rust splotches in a couple areas. I did not know any better at the time but I paid the extra to have them sent sharp. They blades looked like they were ran once across a cheap bench grinder leaving nasty burrs and other areas untouched. I will not go into detail on the scabbards as they are so silly that I probably could not even use them for a costume party.

I contacted Eyal and he promptly tried to remedy this by sending out another dagger. The dagger was a different model and not sharpened but I recognized the attempt and left it at that,

My thoughts on Darksword are as such. They have a niche however their total misrepresentation on their product is what gets my blood boiling and is the motivation on this post. Had I known what I was going to receive I would not have shopped at Darksword.

As a side note I hold SBG somewhat responsible and for the life of me am dumbfounded that Darkswords receive higher ratings than Albion.
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Nick B.




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Darksword Armory         Reply with quote

I haven't posted here in awhile but had to on this. I have made some negative comments about DSA in the past going strickley on hear say, for which I now apologize to Eyal . I decided to buy one of his swords just to check them out. Because the sword was backordered I received a free dagger with it. As we all know, they are not an Albion but they are nowhere near the price of an Albion either. You can't expect to pay the price of a Hyundai and receive a Mercedes. I found the sword to be very good for what I paid for it. They are alot better then what I've seen of most Chinese made swords, which I have broken the blades on just by bending it in my hands. I hear comments about DSA swords being heavy and yes they can be. Normally I buy only historically based swords but one sword I was looking at buying is their Anduril sword from LOTD. DSA version weighs in at 4 lbs 5 ozs while Weta Work Shop version made by Peter Lyon weighs in at 4 lbs 9 ozs. The DSA price tag is $330 while Weta was $6000 when it was still available.
Looking at the pictures posted by J. Hargis, yes I agree they are bad and maybe Eyal should take a closer look at what his people are making before he ships them out. I've had people working for me who didn't do work up to my standards which sometimes slipped by me, it can happen. What's important is how you take care of the problem. It's well known that if you make a mistake you will hear about it forever but when you do something good it can soon be forgotten.
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Brandt Giese




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For the record I was not expecting a mercedes nor can you make cost an argument for misadvertising, poor workmanship, and a total lack of care. As for cost I am willing to dump sword and dagger for anyone willing to make an reasonable offer. 100.00 plus shipping costs?
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Nick B.




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brandt,
I wasn't directing my reply at you but to the post in general. I'm very sorry you were disappointed in your sword and dagger, the ones I received I thought were very good for in that price range. I guess we will never know if I got lucky or you were unlucky unless we go to DSA and check out their entire inventory. If I do purchase the Anduril I'll post what I think of it.
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Brandt Giese




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Nick and its good to hear that you were happy with your sword.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2012 7:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brandt Giese wrote:
As a side note I hold SBG somewhat responsible and for the life of me am dumbfounded that Darkswords receive higher ratings than Albion.


It's just a different focus and set of criteria. When you focus so heavily on price point, as SBG does, you tend to be willing to be more forgiving of other things (visual accuracy & handling accuracy among others). When you focus on historical accuracy, you tend to be more forgiving of a higher price tag because you know the R&D that went into it. Happy

Some people there also over-focus on durability (often defined as a sword's ability to things it wasn't designed for) to the exclusion of things like proper shapes/proportions/handling. It's all a matter of what your priorities are. For me, durability is a product of proper design and good materials, not over-building something, and the idea of durability must also be weighed against realistic expectations of what a sword was designed to do.

Happy

ChadA

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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 2:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Brandt Giese wrote:
As a side note I hold SBG somewhat responsible and for the life of me am dumbfounded that Darkswords receive higher ratings than Albion.


It's just a different focus and set of criteria. When you focus so heavily on price point, as SBG does, you tend to be willing to be more forgiving of other things (visual accuracy & handling accuracy among others). When you focus on historical accuracy, you tend to be more forgiving of a higher price tag because you know the R&D that went into it. Happy

Some people there also over-focus on durability (often defined as a sword's ability to things it wasn't designed for) to the exclusion of things like proper shapes/proportions/handling. It's all a matter of what your priorities are. For me, durability is a product of proper design and good materials, not over-building something, and the idea of durability must also be weighed against realistic expectations of what a sword was designed to do.


And there is something really important in what Chad said. The DSA of old weren't really a sword per say. Their niche was really in stage combat and use to come with 2mm edges. They would easily pass the 10 ft test that many sparring swords would not. They were over built and tough...but that is something you REALLY want in a sword you were gonna bash into other swords in all the wrong way hundreds of times a week. The guy who gave the DSA swords 5 stars on the SBG is a movie prop guy so of course he'd love these things. Then they started to get popular with the backyard cutters because you could totally have bad form and still manage to hack a bottle apart and the sword was okay if you wiffed and hit a cinder block. So they went a 1 mm edge...which made then unsuitable for stage combat to be honest. Then they offered a sharpening service that put a very bad edge on it...all the while never changing the actual geometry to something that would actually work as a sword in hopes that we don't completely abandon them with the influx of the gus VA line and tinker hanwei line. Finally, they gave in and abandoned the stage combat roots entirely and their new blades have been made better...but their fittings are still over built so the swords feel off still. They just don't know how to make an actual sword still...but they are getting better at it. So really, they are still learning their craft and you are getting a discount because of it. I'm sure once they learn how to make albion level stuff, you will see their price tag rise to albion prices.
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Brandt Giese




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would have been happy if they had matched Hanwei's level of quality as the Darksword was the same price as the Hanwei I received a couple weeks prior.
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Raymond Deancona




PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Once again I have to weigh in, not about DSA, but a general trend I see in buyers, namely the mystifying (to me at least) behavior of accepting sub-par products merely because of a price point! Using the car analogy, when you buy a Hyundai, you don't expect the same level of quality as Mercedes, however you do expect both products to get you from point A to point B, and you certainly would not accept flat tires, rust, dings or no passenger seat when buying the Hyundai. The same has to be said of the re-enactment sword industry! It baffles me that a customer would allow any product, regardless of price to arrive with rust, dings, incomplete finishing, etc, and not demand their money back, including shipping to and from the seller! Building a solid sword is NOT a mysterious procedure, but for some reason quality control at the sellers' level seems to be in some cases. We as consumers should not accept any sub par product regardless of how much we spent. Armour Class is a great example of quality for a very reasonable price! Other companies do a super job at quality control as well (see my previous post on this thread) and we as consumers should reward them by purchasing their products. Now, I should say I am not talking about buying a sword on ebay, or other bid sites - let's face it, there you pays your money, you takes your chances Laughing Out Loud
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Nick B.




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 9:04 am    Post subject: Darksword Armory         Reply with quote

I totally sympathies with the people who received bad swords from DSA. All I can say is the one sword and dagger I received had no rust, no grind marks, no misaligned parts and was a good buy. I own four Albions and three antique swords and they are by far my favorites, but the DSA swords I got were just as good as any of my Hanwei's or Cold Steel's.
Would I like to have all Albion and antiques hanging on my walls, sure I would. The problem with that is Albion dosen't make every style of sword I want and I would have to take out a home equity loan to afford all of them.
I was thinking about getting the DSA Andural sword from LOTR and if I do and if it's as bad as some of the ones here then I may have to eat crowe on this and say I got lucky on the first ones. We shall see.
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David Kelly




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Once again I have to weigh in, not about DSA, but a general trend I see in buyers, namely the mystifying (to me at least) behavior of accepting sub-par products merely because of a price point! Using the car analogy, when you buy a Hyundai, you don't expect the same level of quality as Mercedes, however you do expect both products to get you from point A to point B, and you certainly would not accept flat tires, rust, dings or no passenger seat when buying the Hyundai.


Welllll.... not everybody buys their cars at a BBB registered dealership. Lot of folks exist at a level where they shop at Freindly Freddie's Used.

It's great to have deep enough pockets to shop Albion, A&A, independent smithies etc. Not every starry eyed dreamer can do that. So there is a market for them to get in the ball park. ( Top deck. Standing room. Laughing Out Loud )

If you intend to shop in the "sub-$$$" pond, you accept the fact that a lot of what you fish up are stinkers you have to send back. Not to say there aren't some pieces that work well; but they are exceptional.
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Phil D.




PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

More surprising is that it some folks that complain about low end discrepancies seem to find it within tolerance of much costlier swords .

Quality control should be inherent at any price range.

"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

" I've had a wonderful evening but this wasn't it."
-- Graucho Marx --

"I remember when I lost my mind.There was something pleasant about that day...".

"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."


Last edited by Phil D. on Sat 17 Mar, 2012 12:04 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 11:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Kelly wrote:

Welllll.... not everybody buys their cars at a BBB registered dealership. Lot of folks exist at a level where they shop at Freindly Freddie's Used.


Would you be happy if your car from Friendly Freddy's broke an axle, blew a motor, ran into a tree because the brakes failed and had a door fall off all on your way home from buying it? I doubt it. The price may have fit your budget but you should have reasonable expectations about the functionality of the product. For me, a car has to function as a car no matter how much or little I pay for it. I must be able to drive it safely from one place to the next with a reasonable level of reliability and safety.

In the world of cars, people generally understand sacrifices will be made in fit and finish for a lower price, or perhaps in overall reliability/ease of maintenance, and/or gas mileage, but generally don't budge on the basic functionality or safety of the vehicle. Happy In the world of swords, people often don't see things the same way.

Happy

ChadA

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 12:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Phil D. wrote:
More surprising is that it some folks that complain about low end discrepancies seem to find it within tolerance of much costlier swords .Good quality control should be an expected result at any price range.


You've made this point in a couple of different threads now. I agree with you to a degree. But objects made with at least some handcrafting will have some variance; humans aren't as accurate as machines. The question becomes: "how much of the discrepancy is a vagary of hand crafting vs. outright sloppiness?" You'll find disagreement on that. It's a very fine and blurry line between sloppiness and hand-crafted quirkiness.

There's also the question of whether/how the variance affects the final product. A blade being short by 1 cm won't affect the functionality of the sword in any appreciable way for most people. A tang that's 1 cm narrower than it should be could. A slot in the guard that 1 cm off will cause the guard to rattle and create problems. Ditto a pommel that has a hole too big or way off center.

The issues people are seeing (and that you've been commenting on) with Albion's being off-spec generally lie in blade measurements, including weight and balance points. Makes sense to me: that's the part that's affected the most by human hands. I'd imagine getting cast guards and pommels into final shape is a simpler proposition (though it would have its inherent issues to watch out for).

The issues people have been commenting on with DSA have more to do with improper fitting of parts like rattly guards, loose hilts, sloppy sharpening jobs, or poor welding jobs. That's clearly sloppiness and poor quality control.

Albion is not without quality control issues. My review of their Templar showed a gap between guard and grip. That was bad QC. However, it didn't compromise the sword, which was cut with on at least 2 occasions and never came loose because everything else was good.

Every company will let a stinker through QC from time to time. It happens. The kind and frequency of issues that sneak through say a lot about a company's overall design philosophy and attention to detail. How the company handles the issues speaks to their integrity and customer service.

Good QC should be expected at any price range but defining how much is too far out of spec is tough. I think that discrepancies that affect function/safety should not leave the shop. Discrepancies that don't affect function/safety are a more gray area.

As has been mentioned, Albion has been criticized at times for their items being too perfect and sometimes lacking the handmade appeal that period pieces have. Now, they're being criticized for hand-crafting variances... I'm sure they find those facts frustrating.

DSA, on the other hand, has never been criticized for being too perfect. I think it's easy to say that the issues that have been brought up here on their wares cross the line from hand-crafting vagaries to sloppiness.

Happy

ChadA

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Phil D.




PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad,it's not just about the issue of a loose guard,a short or reconfigured blade.A quality check is a quality check.Whether customers being upset at DSA's lack of response or Albion's ,"it falls under our variance" after the fact reasoning...there is no excuse for it.When the item received is faulty or not as described from manufacturer then the customer (as long as it is not just buyers remorse) should not be expected to pay an additional 30 + dollars even 3 times that internationally in return shipping to make things right . The work out of any company will not always be perfect but it is how the outcome is handled that reflects on them.As an example, MRL backs their products so well as to send a prepaid return shipping label at no extra cost to it's customers when needed.




Obviously ,if the outcome is persistent then it is up to the potential customer to be wary of sellers with questionable tactics and products.

"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

" I've had a wonderful evening but this wasn't it."
-- Graucho Marx --

"I remember when I lost my mind.There was something pleasant about that day...".

"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."


Last edited by Phil D. on Sat 17 Mar, 2012 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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