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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > The Rule of Tinctures Reply to topic
 
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Jamie Wilson




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Location: England
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 1:46 am    Post subject: The Rule of Tinctures         Reply with quote

I was wondering if this rule was as strict Fox Davies insists. I found a nice little article here,

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/tinctrul.htm

It's seems going by this that there are Arms that doint follow the rule and it only became a water tight rule when Davies wrote his books in the 19th Century. Granted my academia and research skills are quite poor so was wondering what other people thourght.
Ive just patined a shield that has a Gold Wolf on a White back ground which of course is Metal on Metal but if arms in the past had this shurley it carn't be wrong? it's just a exception to the norm.... Ill have to repaint if it really is sacrosanct.tho.

Cheers for any help on this. Just trying to find out what is and really isnt allowed.
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 2:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Note that the rule is "This is a definite rule which must practically always be rigidly obeyed."

Practically always is not always. There are standard expections listed...but if there are standard exceptions, it leads on to think that there were non-standard exceptions as well. That is what my argument to the heralds of the SCA would be if I needed to try and get it past them. In anycase, what is the shield paint for? If it's for a historical group, well you'd wanna talk with the group about the rules. Most I know of require you to follow the rules of tincture...with the standard exceptions of course. If it's just for your own personal amusement, if you like it and only need plausible...well I made my case for plausible.
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Jamie Wilson




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Location: England
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 2:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes its for use with a Reenactment group. They have seen it and everything is fine.
Im thinking on the same lines as you and if asked by the general public I would explain the Arms I have and how it differs from the normal standard and give examples from all that I can find. I think it would actually be a good talking point.

Heres the Arms so you can see

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/Darkme...ner001.jpg
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 5:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are hundreds if not thousands of exceptions. During the medieval period itself I do not think heraldry was nearly as inflexible as later.

Here is one of the best exceptions I know of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Armoiries_de_J%C3%A9rusalem.svg

I think the or and argent mix is fairly common but that said I could not tell you when exactly heraldry decides this is a major no-no.

RPM
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Michael Ekelmann




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PostPosted: Sun 18 Mar, 2012 2:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The thing about real historic heraldry is that it is never as cut and dry as the heralds would like it to be. Early heraldic rolls were recording the arms which had already been adopted by the bearers. So if the bearer had decided to violate the rules, who were they to stop them?

I wonder, when did the heralds form colleges and begin to arbitrate and award arms?

“Men prefer to fight with swords, so they can see each other's eyes!" Sean Connery as Mulay Hamid El Raisuli in The Wind and the Lion
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Sun 18 Mar, 2012 6:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Ekelmann wrote:

I wonder, when did the heralds form colleges and begin to arbitrate and award arms?


I could be wrong as heraldry is the thing I know the least about, but the " constipated " restrictions are probably very late Medieval to early Renaissance for the general rules and the really picky persnickety details OCD are probably a " Royal " heraldry college Victorian era thing.

If a powerful duke wanted a Wolf, Lion, Eagle or a Bear on his shield who was going to stop him ! (The herald said no .... hang draw and quarter the herald. Wink Razz Laughing Out Loud , Now peer pressure and tradition might still influence the nature of how the wanted symbol was used later in period when it became sort of an alphabet ).

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Eric W. Norenberg




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PostPosted: Sun 18 Mar, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, you all probably already know that the reason for the rule about "metal on tincture, tincture on metal" is for contrast & visibility. The whole genesis of heraldry is in battlefield identification while armored, with faces and body shapes obscured. So if the folks actually bearing the arms (and wearing the armor) back in the day understood this, they would probably be more likely to respect this rule whether they felt they were above the authority of the regional heraldic authority or not. Partly out of respect for tradition, partly for the very practical reason that you hope to avoid falling to "friendly fire."

Now you wouldn't want ten lozenges vert on a field gules (might be a colorblind crossbowman in the ranks) or some complicated rendering of a chimera or on a field argent (too easily confused with the dude bearing a gryphon or on field argent in the opposing ranks), but a bold simple design could be acceptably visible (in other words, make your wolf's head really identifiable as such). I read somewhere (might have been Fox-Davies, actually) that having arms that break the rule of tincture was a deliberate invitation to ask questions. As in, something happened that precipitated this breaking of the rule - a feat of arms while in the presence of someone high-ranking, or coming to the rescue of a grateful superior, who then grants you this distinguishing thing that people will surely ask about. So, if this is for the SCA, make it make sense for your character. "Well my lady, my arms once were a wolf's head couped proper on a field argent, but way back in the day, when the Pope and I were drinking ale in..." Something like that perhaps?

Vivat Orbium Phonographicorum Theca!!!
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Ed Toton




PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar, 2012 12:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An option that can often be used in many groups to get your arms accepted is to "fimbriate" the charge (outline in a contrasting color or metal). Such as "Or, a chevron argent fimbriated sable". Depending on how this is enforced, it may not be permitted on complex charges, such as animals.

For example, this SCA page says fimbriation is limited to simple and geometric charges.

In the end, what will be legal will be determined by the group you're with. However, obeying the rules in the widest possible sense will keep your options open, should you wish to register it with multiple organizations. For instance, in our group we'll permit violations of tincture, and only softly discourage it with that warning that other groups may not accept it, should they try to use it elsewhere.

-Ed T. Toton III
ed.toton.org | ModernChivalry.org
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar, 2012 2:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Seems like general rules used in art or graphics to make sure that text is legible against a background: For computer graphics and slide presentations I always preferred yellow on dark blue or any colours with a great deal of contrast: A good artist would be using those " rules " instinctively even without any knowledge of the " rules of tincture " .

For sure I wouldn't use complementary colours like orange on green unless one wanted to see flashes of optical illusions that these two colours produce: Good way to get a headache or get nauseous. Wink Razz Laughing Out Loud

Or two closely related colours without any sharp differences in contrast would be a good example of colours that make making out foreground and background difficult.

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Eric W. Norenberg




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ed Toton wrote:
An option that can often be used in many groups to get your arms accepted is to "fimbriate" the charge (outline in a contrasting color or metal). Such as "Or, a chevron argent fimbriated sable". Depending on how this is enforced, it may not be permitted on complex charges, such as animals...


Ed, this is great stuff! I kind of considered myself somewhat knowledgeable in heraldry, yet I'd never heard of "fimbriation." Now a number of flags make more sense to me, as so many seemed to skirt the rules of heraldry. Thanks for bringing this up!

-Eric

Vivat Orbium Phonographicorum Theca!!!
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Ed Toton




PostPosted: Fri 23 Mar, 2012 8:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric W. Norenberg wrote:

Ed, this is great stuff! I kind of considered myself somewhat knowledgeable in heraldry, yet I'd never heard of "fimbriation." Now a number of flags make more sense to me, as so many seemed to skirt the rules of heraldry. Thanks for bringing this up!

-Eric


My pleasure! Happy

-Ed T. Toton III
ed.toton.org | ModernChivalry.org
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Jamie Wilson




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Location: England
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Mar, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cheers for everyones information on this. Its been very helpful Cool
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