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Mark T




PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Kudos to Rod Walker on Full Metal Jousting horse abuse         Reply with quote

Here's a clip of one of the Full Metal Jousting participants punching his horse in the head - as well as Rod Walker's response in the heat of the moment: http://youtu.be/FsR2-Ok0kv0

And here's the aftermath: http://youtu.be/8N_7EdCD7no

No doubt a lot more was said and left on the virtual edit floor, but I just wanted to give kudos to Rod for staying cool under pressure and representing all jousters, living history participants, and WMA practitioners with such calmness, honour, and integrity.

Rod: thank you on behalf of 'our' community. I'm guessing we'll meet up sometime; when we do, I'll buy you a Coopers!

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, the guy punching the horse seems like a jerk who doesn't know anything or have respect for horses.

The biggest test of maturity, or rather the lack of it, is refusing to listen to people who know more about something than you do, and continuing to defend something stupid you did rather than learn something: But then I read recently that incompetent people are often too incompetent to know that they are incompetent and never learn any better.

As well. some of the comments to the clip, and the linked clip to the guy being kicked out of the competition, supporting the guy show even less intelligence and much testosterone fuelled bragging about hitting the horse harder and/or the training staff kicking the guy out !. ( Well, for balance there are some good comments also ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Phil D.




PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2012 7:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This leads to my question (please excuse my ignorance). In the old days ,I guess,they used to break the dominance of a very large and wild stallion w/spiked spurs (brute force). How is it done today.I know by nature they fight and the strongest rules.They are obviously allot larger than we are.So,how does a human show dominance .

I know that there are allot of domestic bred horses. So my real question is,how would it be done w/a wild stallion.

"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Bryan W.




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PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2012 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The fact he claims he is a professional sickens me. Who the hell does this guy think he is? Conan the Barbarian?

Unbelievable. It's one thing to act in the heat of the moment, to show absolutely no remorse though shows a blatant disrespect.
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R. Kolick




PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i find this pathetic. i can understand if say it happened and he tryed other things to get the horse off then punched the horse in a panic or if it was out of fear and utter confusion then admitting thats why he did it even though its wrong but doing it then trying to defend punching the horse right off the bat, its just plain stupid hes the lowest of the low. it would be one thing if he did it then acknowledged that he did the wrong thing out of fear and panic but its the fact that he tryed to defend his actions saying it was the right thing to do even after the fact that makes this so bad.

that being said i'm glad he was kicked out and i stand behind Rod and the rest of the FMJ team in this decision it wasn't over reacting its the way it should be
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2012 8:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While talking to one of my interpreters in Afghanistan recently about recent events he said, 'One cow with diarrhea defames the whole herd'.

The actions of one person should not reflect on the rest of the people involved.

Not that Full Metal Jousting has anything to do with reality

David L Smith
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Bryan W.




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PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2012 8:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Lewis Smith wrote:
While talking to one of my interpreters in Afghanistan recently about recent events he said, 'One cow with diarrhea defames the whole herd'.

The actions of one person should not reflect on the rest of the people involved.

Not that Full Metal Jousting has anything to do with reality


Correct although it can enforce negative SCA stereotypes (the group this man claims to be a part of).

[Disclaimer: I am not part of the SCA]
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Thomas Peters




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PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have two horses and have had my foot stepped on more than once. I admit that it hurts to have a 1000+ pound horse step on your foot much less a horse the size of the ones the jousters use, but I have never hit my horses for doing so. The guy was wrong and showed no remorse. He needed to go, simple as that.
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I find all of this very interesting given that I grew up in a very rural area and I'm not sure this action would even raise an eyebrow there. Then again the people around me in those days were farmers, not equestrians, so perhaps a much different world view.
Joe Fults

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Julian Reynolds




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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I also grew up in a very rural area, and have been around horses most of my life (albeit from an equestrian point of view), and I've not seen anyone punch a horse full-on in the muzzle for accidentally treading on their toe. The usual reaction is to cuss loudly and hop around a little! After all, it isn't done on purpose, no more than you treading on someone's toe in the office or subway by accident. It's not the easiest thing for a horse to keep a constant eye on where it puts it's hooves. You just have to accept it doesn't always get it right, and pay more attention to where you put your feet and keep them out of the way! What exactly is this guy 'punishing' the horse for? What message is he sending it? What lesson is he teaching it (other than to flinch)? It is retaliation, pure and simple meanness.

Julian
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Sean O Stevens




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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 1:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was thrilled in how they dealt with the guy punching the horse... in fact, that incident tipped me over the top in my appreciation for the show and the people working on it. I'm a huge fan now for sure.
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Zac Evans




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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 5:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Phil D. wrote:
This leads to my question (please excuse my ignorance). In the old days ,I guess,they used to break the dominance of a very large and wild stallion w/spiked spurs (brute force). How is it done today.I know by nature they fight and the strongest rules.They are obviously allot larger than we are.So,how does a human show dominance .

I know that there are allot of domestic bred horses. So my real question is,how would it be done w/a wild stallion.



Why do you think that they started training the stallions when they were "Large and Wild"? Start the training when they're smaller, and then when they're Large, they won't be Wild.

The spurs and large bits are war kit. Smaller ones are used the rest of the time, and the style of riding was also different, making them less harsh that we would imagine looking at them with modern eyes.
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Eric Meulemans




PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Phil D. wrote:
This leads to my question (please excuse my ignorance). In the old days ,I guess,they used to break the dominance of a very large and wild stallion w/spiked spurs (brute force). How is it done today.I know by nature they fight and the strongest rules.They are obviously allot larger than we are.So,how does a human show dominance .

I know that there are allot of domestic bred horses. So my real question is,how would it be done w/a wild stallion.


Be it "the old days" or today's days, methods vary, but the goal really isn't to be "dominant." Horses want a proven leader, not necessarily someone that can kick their ass - they just tend to resent that. Particularly around the "exuberant" sort of stallion, you really have to use your head. Once a conflict begins it can escalate rapidly and it's not likely you'll win that using force. As you note, horses are a bit bigger and stronger than we are, so going toe-to-toe isn't a good approach anyway. There are ways to physically dominate them and break their will, so to speak, but Xenephon warns against this, even more than 2000 years ago:

"For what the horse does under compulsion, as Simon also observes, is done without understanding; and there is no beauty in it either, any more than if one should whip and spur a dancer." -Xenephon, The Art of Horsemanship, c. 350 BC

"The one best precept--the golden rule--in dealing with a horse is never to approach him angrily. Anger is so devoid of forethought that it will often drive a man to do things which in a calmer mood he will regret. Thus, when a horse is shy of any object and refuses to approach it, you must teach him that there is nothing to be alarmed at, particularly if he be a plucky animal; or, failing that, touch the formidable object yourself, and then gently lead the horse up to it. The opposite plan of forcing the frightened creature by blows only intensifies its fear, the horse mentally associating the pain he suffers at such a moment with the object of suspicion, which he naturally regards as its cause." -Ibid.

And a bit more recently, to demonstrate the whole "natural horsemanship" gig is nothing new in the West:

"Horses are trained by the best horsemen, under the supervision of an officer or noncommissioned officer; and the men employed in this part of the horse's education are selected for their natural fondness for animals as well as for their patience, coolness, and intelligence. The horse thus made gentle and obedient, and his powers and qualities are best developed by patience, kindness, encouragement, and fearlessness; punishment is resorted to only when necessary, and then only administered immediately after the commission of the offense, that he may know why he is punished. No punishment should ever be administered to the horse in anger." -Cavalry Drill Regulations, US Army, 1909., pp. 158-159

As Zac says, it's best to start them young. They're easy that way, and you can teach them proper manner with little problem. He puts it pretty eloquently, actually.
Zac Evans wrote:
Start the training when they're smaller, and then when they're Large, they won't be Wild.

Just as a Kazakh might reply:

"All evening we talked horses. What made a good one, what colours were best, the difference between race-horses and work-horses, and so on. At one point I asked how they broke their horses, and received only quizzical looks in reply. So I rephrased the question: 'How do you get a horse used to the saddle?' Their reply revealed that they considered the idea of breaking a horse totally unnecessary. 'Just keep the young horse near to you for a few weeks', they said; 'feed it, talk to it. After a while, put a blanket on its back, then a bit later a saddle. They'll soon let uou climb up on them after that.'"
-Reid, In Search of the Immortals

As for spurs... there are others here with more comprehensive knowledge than myself of their use, but despite their viscous appearance they are still a tool which must be used correctly and judiciously to remain effective. They aren't a substitute for training for either horse or rider and in fact require it to receive any real benefit. Just strapping them on doesn't make you an equestrian, after all...

And to the original topic. Getting stepped on isn't usually the horse's fault, it's yours. A push on the shoulder or a pinch in the ribs is all you need, not a punch to the head. In fact, striking the face of any horse - and particularly a jousting horse - is so taboo and idiotic as to warrant exactly what he got - the boot.
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Barry C. Hutchins




PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Horses have long memories.. and are quite capable of launching what they perceive to be a threat and/or an annoyance, be it a snapping dog or a human which has abused them.

I have watched a "retired" thoroughbred turn around and proceed to demolish with one double leg kick, the newly constructed stall wall made out of full dimension 2 1/2" white oak planks, with 2 1/2" x 3" battens fastened to full 4x4 posts (anchored to 10x10 barn beams and imbedded in the floor). That particular horse was quite capable of launching any of those nouveaux knights....


That being said, horses are quite like four year olds.. and will challenge you if given the chance; I spent a good 10 years around horses on a regular basis, you need to come to an 'arrangement' with them since they have a size advantage. Beating on them is not a constructive way to reach that arrangement.. Wink
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If that was his own horse then I wonder what happened to it afterwards. A person like that will blame it for getting him kicked off the show.
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Phil D.




PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 2:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think that the horses are provided by the show.
"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Zac Evans




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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
If that was his own horse then I wonder what happened to it afterwards. A person like that will blame it for getting him kicked off the show.


Thankfully it wasn't his horse. It does of course show him to be more of a jerk, as he did something to someone elses horse that they didn't like, and then refused to apologize.
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Alex Bond




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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bryan W. wrote:

Correct although it can enforce negative SCA stereotypes (the group this man claims to be a part of).

[Disclaimer: I am not part of the SCA]


As a member of the SCA for over 15 years I have to comment that this guy in no way represents the vast majority of combatants on SCA battlefields across the country. I've spent countless days at SCA wars,events, and fighter practices taking and dealing blows till I simply couldn't anymore. Never once in my 15 years of SCA combat have I ever been struck in anger by an opponent even after I injured them with a blow. I have found that those whom I have the most hard fought battles with by day are those whom I break bread, share mead, and retell stories with at night. I have found that in combat, even SCA combat, bonds can be made that will never be broken.

Yes there are people like this idiot from Full Metal Jousting in the SCA but they are in no way the majority and they themselves are outcasts within the SCA (can't ban someone from SCA for being a jerk but you can ban them from your encampment). There are MANY more of us in the SCA, however, that are kind and good natured people even when dealing a sword blow to the head of an opponent.

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Bryan W.




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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.history.com/shows/full-metal-joust...don-morris as per the bio...

Anyway, I'm sure this guy doesn't represent the majority of the SCA in any way, shape or form....I'm just saying as an outsider, this person claiming to be a part of that group just basically embarrassed anyone he is associated or claims to be associated with. Punching your own horse is terrible. Punching someone else's horse? Really?
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Alex Bond




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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

He also claims in the same profile to be a part of the worlds of equestrian riding, polo, thai kickboxing, and was the product of a private school...but you singled out the SCA. I only came to the defense of a group which I believe gets a bad rap from people who aren't even associated with it (which you stated in your earlier post). As someone who has only rarely not seen honor displayed on SCA battlefields I'm surprised by the negative comments the group can get when it isn't even the main topic of conversation which was this jerk punching a horse. Many of us in the SCA play as barbarians...doesn't mean we really are.
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