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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > New essay and translation of Figueyredo's montante available Reply to topic
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Eric Myers




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PostPosted: Tue 03 Apr, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: New essay and translation of Figueyredo's montante available         Reply with quote

For all you montante fans out there, I would like to announce an expanded essay and updated translation for Diogo Gomes de Figueyredo's "Memorial of the Practice of the Montante" is now available here.

During the three years since the first edition of our monograph, Steve and I have learned more about earlier Iberian fencing systems as well as la Verdadera Destreza and its influence on Diogo Gomes de Figueyredo. For the second edition we have added new content about Iberian fencing, the author, and historical context. The translation received one major change in the first simple rule based on Figueyredo's earlier work Oplosophia, to include the concept of “right angle” from la Verdadera Destreza. A second major change was made to the thirteenth simple rule, as a review of other works has shown the cloak in question to be literal rather than figurative. A number of minor updates were also made for grammatical clarity; in particular you will notice this in some names, e.g. Lady Guard is now Guarding a Lady.

As always, please feel free to contact me with any questions you have about the material, errors you find, etc.

Eric Myers
Sacramento Sword School
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Patrick De Block




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PostPosted: Tue 03 Apr, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric and Steve,

Great. Thank you for the work. I know what I'm going to do the next days.
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Patrick De Block




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When I first read that first rule I interpreted 'and stopping with the montante in an upright posture in front of the face' as 'in front of his face'. Not everyone agreed on that. Now you translate 'em postura recta' as 'in right angle' whereas previously 'in an upright posture'. 'Recta' could also be translated as 'straight' and straight can mean upright or correct, meaning 'the proper way to do'. Is 'em postura recta' a common phrase in La Verdadera Destreza and is that the reason for the change?

And I'm I right in supposing that this means, as you swing the sword upwards while stepping with the right, that you stop in Ochs (or whatever that posture is called in LVD) or 'in front of his face'.
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Steven Reich




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is good stuff. However, if this is all because you accidentally dropped your hand-bound version of the previous edition of the translation in the toilet, I have to tell you that there are easier ways to get a replacement. Wink

Steve

Founder of NoVA-Assalto, an affiliate of the HEMA Alliance
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Eric Myers




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr, 2012 8:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Patrick,

You are right that recta on it's own can mean straight or proper, true, correct, etc. In standard Portuguese postura recta really does mean upright, as in perpendicular to the horizon.

As we learned more about la verdadera destreza and that Figueiredo had authored a destreza text, we suspected he might be using the term to mean "the placement or position of right angle." I was initially a little uncomfortable making the jump because all the other destreza texts we had were in Spanish and didn't use this precise phrase. However, once we got a copy of Figueiredo's Oplosophia we found him using the this phrasing a number of times, and it became very clear that he uses this phrase as Terminology, in the la verdadera destreza context, to mean "right angle", a term extensively discussed in most destreza texts.

The position of right angle with a two-handed sword is going to be much more like longpoint than like ochs/finestra.

Regards,

Eric Myers
Sacramento Sword School
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Eric Myers




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steven Reich wrote:
This is good stuff. However, if this is all because you accidentally dropped your hand-bound version of the previous edition of the translation in the toilet, I have to tell you that there are easier ways to get a replacement. Wink


HAHA! No, your handiwork is safe and sound and at hand for easy reference. I haven't yet quite brought myself to take a red pencil to these particular rules, however....

Eric Myers
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Patrick De Block




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PostPosted: Sat 07 Apr, 2012 12:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Eric,

Let me see if I understand your prompt response. The right angle is the default posture in LVD. To imitate that posture when you start a violent cut from the right rear and then stop the montante, it means that both your arms are comfortably extended in front of your face with the point aiming at your opponents face, so your sword is at 90° and you are more square than when holding your hands at the side of your face as in Ochs. Right?

Regards
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Eric Myers




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PostPosted: Sat 07 Apr, 2012 8:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Patrick,

That's pretty much it, yes.

Regards,

Eric Myers
Sacramento Sword School
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Christopher Lee




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PostPosted: Sun 08 Apr, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is anyone planning to do a photographic interpretation of the sequences for those of us who are more visual rather than textual?


I've told thee how the Southrons fell
Beneath the broad claymore,
And how we smote the Campbell clan
By Inverlochy's shore.
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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Mon 09 Apr, 2012 12:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher Lee wrote:
Is anyone planning to do a photographic interpretation of the sequences for those of us who are more visual rather than textual?


I second this motion.
I mean, his rules are pretty clear (which is nice in comparison to cryptic rhyming couplets) but I'll give the person who does a visual guidetheir weight in Iberian bullion!

A Knyght ther was, and that a worthy man,/ That fro the tyme that he first bigan/ To riden out, he loved chivalrie,/ Trouthe and honour, fredom and curteisie./ ... He was a verray parfit gentil knyght./ But for to tellen yow of his array,/ His hors weren goode, but he was nat gay./ Of fustian he wered a gypoun,/ Al bismotered with his habergeoun;/ For he was late ycome from his viage,/ And wente for to doon his pilgrymage.
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Patrick De Block




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PostPosted: Mon 09 Apr, 2012 12:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Meanwhile, untill someone does a visual guide, have a look at this link.

http://www.nova-assalto.com/files/MontanteSpa...andout.pdf
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Daniel Wallace




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PostPosted: Mon 09 Apr, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i read through the memorial and i couldn't visualize it very well either - i did track down some you tube videos a month ago that showed some pretty neat stuff with this sword. i didn't expect it go be a weapon that's seeming to stay in constant motion.
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Patrick De Block




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PostPosted: Mon 09 Apr, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have you seen this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRKQ2dV3pKI
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Christopher Lee




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr, 2012 1:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glad to know that i'm not the only one who has difficulty visualising this stuff - was worried that i had some sort of spacial/conceptual disability!! Wink

But yeah, i think a visual guide or interpretation of the use of the montante/spadone would be a great idea.
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Patrick De Block




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Since I'm playing the librarian.

http://vimeo.com/20250526

http://vimeo.com/20371954

I want an official recognition, preferably by the Portugese Goverment, something like 'Highly Valued Cultural Property Librarian'.
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Christopher Lee




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Apr, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Videos are great, unless you're like me - trapped on a low bandwidth internet connection and unable to actually view them. I know that in that respect i'm in the minority but there is something much more 'user friendly" and durable about a book/text with pictures - you can pick it up, put it down, take it out to the backyard, prop it up on a wall while you work through a sequence, read it on the train, and so on.
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Aleksei Sosnovski




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PostPosted: Mon 16 Apr, 2012 3:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can somebody tell me the difference between the first and the second simple rules? Both are basically the same: talho with right foot stepping forward, revez with left foot stepping forward, talho with left foot stepping backwards, revez with right foot stepping backwards, talho to the shoulder while standing still (which as far as I understand is an altibaxo). The differences that I see are:
- in the second rule there is no explicit mention of stopping between revez and talho
- there is no explicit mention of making revez with the false edge

Am I missing some obvious difference or are these rules indeed very similar? How do you guys interpret them?
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Daniel Wallace




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PostPosted: Mon 16 Apr, 2012 2:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

great videos Patrick, seeing some of rules broken down was really helpful after reading the essay. espically the trust. i must have read that several times but still couldn't visualize how it was done.
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Emil Andersson




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 4:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm still just a beginner, but I'm poised to start filming myself going through the rules and upload it for public viewing. I've noticed a lack of visual material in this field and I figure that it'll be a good service to the community as well as a way to improve my own training.

I also want to thank the authors Steve and Eric for making this translation available. Fascinating stuff. Happy

Tomorrow will be Special; Yesterday was not.
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Emil Andersson




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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 4:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aleksei Sosnovski wrote:
Can somebody tell me the difference between the first and the second simple rules?


I think the difference lie in the strokes that are described. The first rule describe four ascending cuts (or three, if you're being literal) while the second rule only describes two as ascending ones. When I perform the second rule I like to do the second and fourth cuts as descending ones, letting the point fall down from the extended position after the previous cuts.

Tomorrow will be Special; Yesterday was not.
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