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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Battle of the Nations 2012 Reply to topic
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Bennison N




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PostPosted: Thu 03 May, 2012 5:56 pm    Post subject: Battle of the Nations 2012         Reply with quote

The Battle of the Nations 2012 has been running the last couple of days, and a definite dominance by the Eastern Europeans has been evident the whole tourney.

See for yourself:

http://bnfest.pl

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Bryson Cadle




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PostPosted: Thu 03 May, 2012 11:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pretty sweet. I always wondered about how they judged these things and what the regulations were.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Fri 04 May, 2012 5:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am not seeing any numbers in their score card online so for. Where are you seeing the current outcomes?

When you watch the video it is interesting to see how much the weapons bend when people are struck..... All I keep thinking is 'that is gonna leave a mark".

RPM
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Wilhelm S.




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PostPosted: Fri 04 May, 2012 6:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My friend is on his way back from fighting with the US team for the 1st time. Cant wait for a debrief.
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Gottfried P. Doerler




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PostPosted: Fri 04 May, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i heard there was an us-team this year.
how did they fare ?

generally i appreciate other teams participating ( i think someone is also trying to get an austrian team together for next year),
but honestly, from what i`ve seen so far i fear these guys will sweep the floor with us softened westerners.*

*(does this make sense ? adages are so difficult to translate.)
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Lloyd Clark




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PostPosted: Fri 04 May, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gottfried P. Doerler wrote:
i heard there was an us-team this year.
how did they fare ?

generally i appreciate other teams participating ( i think someone is also trying to get an austrian team together for next year),
but honestly, from what i`ve seen so far i fear these guys will sweep the floor with us softened westerners.*

*(does this make sense ? adages are so difficult to translate.)


http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=148653

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
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Till J. Lodemann




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PostPosted: Sat 05 May, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So I just returned from Warsaw as a member of the German National Team. It was huge fun.
The U.S. Team fought very well and received an award for the best newcomer at the tournament. Austria participated also and was quite successful in their group of 5 vs 5. They won over _US Team 3 and Israel.
Germany had a group with Poland 1, Ukraine 1 and Italia. All fought very well and fair. Although they were very hard to bring down, we won over Italia. The elite teams of Poland and Ukraine... well they really kind of swept the floor with us :-) But we learned a lot and brought some of them down, too.

It was interesting to see the increase in proficiency in the western teams that fought already last year. With enough fighters to participate and train, I think the newcomer nations will be able to get toe to toe with the easterners in but a few years.
The most important stuff really is to have the right kind of equipment and to know how to train (and do it).
Most of the injuries I saw were inflicted due to bad equipment, especially helmets and gauntlets.

I wish all the other teams a good homecoming and a good use of the gained experience for the upcoming tournaments. See you next year!
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Michal Plezia




PostPosted: Sat 05 May, 2012 2:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From the FB profile (http://www.facebook.com/BitwaNarodowRycerskieMistrostwaSwiata):
Quote:

First of all - our congratulations to participants, who occupied first places in all nominations of our championship!
Duel 1 vs 1 – Sergey Ukolov, Russia.
Group fights 5 vs 5 – team “Russia 1”
Mass fights 21 vs 21 - National team of Russia
All vs All – team of Russia
Professional fights:
Fight 1 – Ivan Vasilyev (Russia)
Fight 2 – Artur Kreivald (Balt states)
Fight 3 – Alexander Nickitin (Russia)
Fight 4 – Jakub Logusz (Poland)
Fight 5 – Sergey Makukha (Ukraine)

The best debut – National team of USA
The best authentic camp – Denmark
More information – in short time. Thank you for being with us.

www.elchon.com

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The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
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Bennison N




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PostPosted: Sun 06 May, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are the results for the tourney that interests me the most - 1 on 1 "Duels"

I PLACE: Sergey Ukolov (Russia)

II PLACE: Marciu Waszkielis (Poland)

III PLACE: Alexey Petrik (Russia)

IV PLACE: Oleg Podluzhny (Ukraine)


I hope Mr. Ukolov is there when I go in 2014 with Team New Zealand! Happy He's currently undefeated and three times winner.

And here are the 5 on 5 Team battle results:

I PLACE: Russia 1

II PLACE: Russia 2

III PLACE: Russia 3

IV PLACE: Ukraine 1


The All on All scrap looked pretty cool...

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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T. Arndt




PostPosted: Sun 06 May, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do I understand The Battle of the Nations rules correctly, in that all stabbing type attacks and spears are prohibited? What about maces?

I realize this must be for safely but I hope people realize this not realistic. How do you kill a man in armor? Stab him, or grapple and stab him or concuss him and maybe follow that up by- stabbing him....

WMA/HEMA/HES folks manage to stab during free-sparing with a lot less protection on that what this event requires. Are people "out/dead" when they are knocked over? This would explain no stabbing as stabbing, unless real, will not knock someone over.

What I see in the videos looks like a football defensive line + SCA...
Based what I understand above I doubt you will see much period technique. Am I wrong?

Edit: By armor I mean harness, partial or full plate circa 1350 and later.

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA)
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal


Last edited by T. Arndt on Sun 06 May, 2012 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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D. Phillip Caron




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PostPosted: Sun 06 May, 2012 5:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have just watched this short video. I am 64 years old. I will not participate in this competition .... ever. lol
The first casualty of battle is bravado, the second is macho.
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Bennison N




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PostPosted: Sun 06 May, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Arndt wrote:
Do I understand The Battle of the Nations rules correctly, in that all stabbing type attacks and spears are prohibited? What about maces?

I realize this must be for safely but I hope people realize this not realistic. How do you kill a man in armor? Stab him, or grapple and stab him or concuss him and maybe follow that up by- stabbing him....

WMA/HEMA/HES folks manage to stab during free-sparing with a lot less protection on that what this event requires. Are people "out/dead" when they are knocked over? This would explain no stabbing as stabbing, unless real, will not knock someone over.

What I see in the videos looks like a football defensive line + SCA...
Based what I understand above I doubt you will see much period technique. Am I wrong?

Edit: By armor I mean harness, partial or full plate circa 1350 and later.


Yeah, the thrusting ban has hindered me a bit in practice, but I'm getting the hang of it now. It feels weird not being able to poke someone when they show a big place to poke, but rules are rules. You can punch with your shield if it's made of wood on the edge, so I'm currently experimenting with wooden bucklers...

I think there was no maces this year only because they are illegal in Poland. At least that was how it was explained to me. The guy had a very strong accent, so don't quote me, ok?

Yep, on your back makes you out. And you can't clear the field until the fighting moves away, so there's a real risk of being trampled.

But I can't think of anything more fun that smashing hell out of big metal men who fight back, can you? I can't wait!

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Sun 06 May, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

D. Phillip Caron wrote:
I have just watched this short video. I am 64 years old. I will not participate in this competition .... ever. lol


I agree. Wink Big Grin Laughing Out Loud I'm 62, and maybe strong enough, but my aerobic fitness, or lack of, would probably mean a heart attack or just falling on my back after 30 seconds and trying as much as possible to withdraw limbs and head into the torso of my armour like a turtle. Wink Laughing Out Loud

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Till J. Lodemann




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PostPosted: Mon 07 May, 2012 4:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Towards the question about thrusts:

This is a highly competitive full contact fighting sport. Unlike HEMA tournaments, we are using all our force and there is no holding back towards the opponent while the fight is going on. We do not stop after one hit is scored we fight through our rounds or in buhurt, until the last opponent has fallen. We use stiff blades of all kind and not fechtfedern(!). no one here is using armour like the foot combat harness of Henry VIII originally made for the Field of the Cloth of Gold with lames protecting even armpits and buttocks, we use late 14th century gear mainly wich does have some weak and open spots. Just imagine what would happen.
In 1 vs 1 thrusts would be dangerous, in 5 vs 5 or 212 vs 21 they would be disastrous. especially on the very high level of expertise and expectations in a world championship like Battle of the Nations. Some fighters are very, very eager to win and do not hesitate to do this even on the cost of the health of their opponents. There ARE fouls, sometimes. :-(

If you know some martials sports, you will surely understand that there always will be restrictions in a full contact fighting mode, if there were none, it would be a real fight, after all.

This is the difference between a martial sport and a martial art. In a sportstournament, you fight to win. There simply is no holding back. So, there are certain rules to allow the fighters to leave the fight alive and without too many broken bones.
In a sport fight, we do not pretend the fight to be a serious fight to live and death, but we do all we are allowed to do to win.
In a martial art, you train the most effective techniques to kill or maim you opponent, but you would never try to use them to their ultimate goal against another practitioner of your art.

Take it from someone who played this game, thrusts would not make it better. Even now, we hear to the sport as a whole two mayor criticisms: 1. What you mentioned: There are no thrusts, this is unrealistic!
2. This is far too brutal, so many people get hurt!

Sometimes even from the same person :-) I trust you see why these two criticisms are contradicting each other.
So to prohibit thrusts is not a matter of realism, but a matter of sensibility


And what is up with maces:

Maces can be used, but they are somewhat ineffective. You have to hit exactly with the macehead on the opponent. On paper, this sounds easy, but in a real fight, when the opponent is fighting back and maybe tries to go into a clinch, it is very difficult. If you do not hit with the macehead, but with the grip, the hit is uselessly weak. A strong falchion is much better in these aspects. Most of us use falchions modeled after some specimens of the alexander romance, the do punch very hard!
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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Mon 07 May, 2012 6:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Till J. Lodemann wrote:
...or 212 vs 21...

Whoa, that seems a little one sided.

A Knyght ther was, and that a worthy man,/ That fro the tyme that he first bigan/ To riden out, he loved chivalrie,/ Trouthe and honour, fredom and curteisie./ ... He was a verray parfit gentil knyght./ But for to tellen yow of his array,/ His hors weren goode, but he was nat gay./ Of fustian he wered a gypoun,/ Al bismotered with his habergeoun;/ For he was late ycome from his viage,/ And wente for to doon his pilgrymage.
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Till J. Lodemann




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PostPosted: Mon 07 May, 2012 9:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh well, you're right. 21 vs 21 was what I wanted to type! Laughing Out Loud
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T. Arndt




PostPosted: Mon 07 May, 2012 9:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Till, Thanks for the response and info.

I also wanted to clarify since I think I was misunderstood.

I'm not saying that thrusts should be allowed, I understand based on how people are eliminated why that would not be safe. The point I was making was that I hope the general public and participants are not under the opinion that combat as takes place at the Battle of Nations is an accurate historical portrayal of combat.

Again, the reason I am asserting that is:
1. Sword/polearm thrusts are a core component of harnessfechten
2. The spear, the most popular pole weapon of all time is disallowed.
3. Fighting is not harnessfechten (for above reasons) nor blossfechten (because cuts are not lethal/disqualifying/threatening), therefore the fighting is not a historical style. This is reflected in the reality of Battle of Nations; as I watch videos I see very few historical techniques (it looks more like SCA).

Now please don't read the above to mean I dislike the sport, it looks like loads of fun; I simply hope people don't look and say, "that is what medieval battle was!" .

Again thanks for the insight and stay safe!

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA)
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

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Till J. Lodemann




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PostPosted: Mon 07 May, 2012 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alright. I understand what you wanted to express :-)

I am not offended by your comment, everyone is entitled to his own opinion.
But I posted my comment above because I think that these kind of criticisms do miss the point of what this sport attempts to do. Of cause it is not harnischfechten nor blossfechten in the sense of that which the german and italian manuscripts are teaching. Obviously many techniques disscribed in the Fechtbücher are prohibited in our sport and the goal is different then in a judical dduel We ARE NOT simulating to kill each other, we ARE TRYING to win a sportive competition against each other.

Another point to make clear here is that there are different kinds of competition with special sets of rules in our sport. The 1 vs 1 has different rules then 5 vs 5 or 21 vs 21 and the professional 1 vs 1 fights are still different the normal 1 vs 1.

We care about that our arms and armour are as historically correct as possible.
So it certainly has a connection to the medieval military world
One could say that this is a sort of recreation of medieval foot tournament fighting or so, but this actually not an issue we care a lot about.
I think there are lot's of issues with historical fencing that are not historically correct neither, but that is not the way we can criticize our sports. If it were 100% realistic or authentic, it would be medieval war.

Another minor point about one hit fights vs round fights: People just do not die from just one wound. Read: http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.php and http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/kill2.php

Anyway we are neither SCA nor HEMA. We do a certain sport which every one able and willing to participate in is welcome to enjoy :-)
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T. Arndt




PostPosted: Mon 07 May, 2012 11:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Till, thanks for the interesting articles. I hope I didn't assert that a single thrust was instantly deadly. If movies were accurate in their portrayal of death historical drama would be much more gruesome.... I agree with the articles.

I should point out that in sparring, most HES/HEMA groups require either the opponent who has landed an the "deadly" blow to either void/parry one further attack from the dead man or take so many steps. This is a vague simulation of the continued danger presented by a walking dead man.

I try in my practice to follow up a finishing thrust with a cut. Bisecting a man's head with a zwerchau is most definitely the last stroke of a fight. The comparative ease of something like a longsword versus a rapier performing decapitations and severing limbs makes me think that losers probably tended to linger longer in the later days of smaller thrust-based weapons.

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A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

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Bennison N




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PostPosted: Mon 07 May, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I find it hard not to thrust, but I'm getting better at it.

I was really bummed about the no spear thing, but oh well...

Till J., I have a question you may be able to help me with... I have addressed this already to BoN staff by email, but you might know as well.

The new video rules on the BoN youtube channel make constant reference to "Eurasia" and even mention "Mongol" a number of times...

So can I use medieval Mongolian Armour and Weapons? Obviously with the length, weight and rebated edge rules in mind.

What do you think? I'd appreciate your opinion.

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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