Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search


Please help our efforts with a donation. It's time to pay our annual server hosting bill. We've collected 2676.00 towards our goal of 2400 USD. View Goal Progress
Last 10 Donors: Scott Hrouda, Anonymous, Leo Todeschini, Neil Eddiford, Joel Minturn, Josh Wilson, Neil Bockus, Adam Rose, Jesse Belsky, Raymond Deancona (View All Donors)

Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Arming doublet of the 15th century Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 
Author Message
Alessio J. Orlandi




Usergroups: None

Location: Bologna, Italy
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi! I used to visit this forum long time ago, and now I'm back just to say thanks for all the usefull informations I found here. Here is the reconstruction I made of an italian arming doublet to be worn undern my milanese armour, also following your suggestions here on myArmoury. There are some defects in my reconstruction (it's made only in 4 parts instead of 8, buttons don't look that great and so on...). This is based on the ordinary italian farsetto, but is built to be used in battle. The chest is lined with a dozen of layers of fabric, so that it gets that "busty" shape and provides some more protection. The lower part is reinforced with some layers of strong fabric and now has many eylets (not portraied in this old pics). Also the upper part of the arms are partly reinforced to sustain the weight of the iron arms. The back of the neck is also reinforced and padded too.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/421043_312238498827500_100001240568133_934115_527421806_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/424492_312238712160812_100001240568133_934118_808377461_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/417241_312238642160819_100001240568133_934117_1716481977_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/395754_309862449065105_100001240568133_929274_2049285848_n.jpg

Unluckily I don't have any recent picture with the finished work
View user's profile Send private message
Glennan Carnie




Usergroups: 
Donating Members

Location: UK
Posts: 283
PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alessio J. Orlandi wrote:
Hi! I used to visit this forum long time ago, and now I'm back just to say thanks for all the usefull informations I found here. Here is the reconstruction I made of an italian arming doublet to be worn undern my milanese armour, also following your suggestions here on myArmoury. There are some defects in my reconstruction (it's made only in 4 parts instead of 8, buttons don't look that great and so on...). This is based on the ordinary italian farsetto, but is built to be used in battle. The chest is lined with a dozen of layers of fabric, so that it gets that "busty" shape and provides some more protection. The lower part is reinforced with some layers of strong fabric and now has many eylets (not portraied in this old pics). Also the upper part of the arms are partly reinforced to sustain the weight of the iron arms. The back of the neck is also reinforced and padded too.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/421043_312238498827500_100001240568133_934115_527421806_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/424492_312238712160812_100001240568133_934118_808377461_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/417241_312238642160819_100001240568133_934117_1716481977_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/395754_309862449065105_100001240568133_929274_2049285848_n.jpg

Unluckily I don't have any recent picture with the finished work


You need to sort the neckline out. It's really pretty awful.

I'd be tempted to inset the sleeve more. Set the armhole higher; particularly under the arm. You could achieve a much tighter / sleeker fit by doing this, without sacrificing mobility.
View user's profile Send private message
Jens Boerner




Usergroups: None

Location: Erlangen, Germany
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Mon 14 May, 2012 7:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Way more waist. You whatever you did, you can see the stitches from the interlining(?) on the outside. Ain't historical.
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger ICQ Number
Alessio J. Orlandi




Usergroups: None

Location: Bologna, Italy
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Tue 15 May, 2012 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glennan, in which way should I sort it out? Should I make it more slender or what?

Jens, for what I know there are no clear evidences about how italian arming doublets where made. The whole thing is just an hypothesis. My idea was: it should look more or less like a common civilian doublet, but for sure must be stronger and maybe safer. So I made this kind of crossover between an italian farsetto and a gambeson. That's why stitches are visible. Of course, one could always sew the layers of interlining and THEN cover everything with an exterior, more elegant lining. About the waist, I should more probably lose some weight :P Of course one could "inflate" more the chest, but this thing is to be used under a milanese armour and I need some room to breathe.
View user's profile Send private message
Kel Rekuta




Usergroups: 
Donating Members

Location: Toronto, Canada
Likes: 1 page
Posts: 574
PostPosted: Wed 16 May, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alessio,

Regardless of what the re-enactors have to say, I rather like your farsetto. It may not be as perfect as some people expect but the effort you put into it is commendable. It is exactly the sort of arming coat I am looking for and there are no commercial versions of anything like it available. My vote is well done!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tölgyes Tamás




Usergroups: None


Reading list: 2 books
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Thu 17 May, 2012 3:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alessio J. Orlandi wrote:
About the waist, I should more probably lose some weight :P

Read back, on this page you can see a (historically unaccurate) doublet by Adam Bodorics. He's about 100-110 kg (230-240 pounds).
View user's profile Send private message
Alessio J. Orlandi




Usergroups: None

Location: Bologna, Italy
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Thu 24 May, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen it, but that really looks bizarre to me... I mean, he must have a really thin waist if you compare it to the hips. I can increase the ratio chest/waist by adding more padding, but there is no way to increase the ratio hips/waist, unless I use a corset.
For a comparison with "everyday" doublets (not arming garments):
Piero della Francesca
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/394755_291381707579846_100001240568133_874381_1529339899_n.jpg

Fra Carnevale???
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/394104_291381870913163_100001240568133_874384_1051608427_n.jpg

Fra Carnevale
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/384952_291381957579821_100001240568133_874385_1893270192_n.jpg

Mantegna
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/407375_291382834246400_100001240568133_874392_2129061440_n.jpg

Pala di S. Ginesio
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alberto82/518215...32758@N02/

Biagio di Antonio Tucci
http://www.flickr.com/photos/repetti/23912778...32758@N02/

Oratorio dei Buonomini di S. Martino (Florence)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_carloni/6...32758@N02/
Arming doublet? Damn, it's hidden by the breastplate and the mail... Sad
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_carloni/6...8774649193

At least in those who look like the less "idealized" portraits, you can see that the ratio hips/waist is not so exagerated (if you can find them, please check also drawings by Pollaiolo and pupills)

Even if these are not arming doublets, I think it's worth to take a look, just to make a comparison with some modern reconstruction by someone who cooperates with museums (can't remember if Paola Fabbri was already cited before)
http://www.paolafabbri.it/prodotti-xv-xvi.asp?form_chiave=14
View user's profile Send private message
Aleksei Sosnovski




Usergroups: None


Posts: 312
PostPosted: Fri 25 May, 2012 6:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alessio, your doublet has some wrinkles/folds at the waist which clearly indicates that there is some free space between it and your body. There should be none. Take a belt or rope and tightly wrap it around your waist. This is how a doublet should be. If it is loose and you attach your leg harness to it the harness will hang on your shoulders tiring you quickly and impairing your freedom of movement. If the doublet is made correctly leg harness should hang on your waist rather than shoulders. This way you can wear leg armor for the whole day without your shoulders and back getting tired.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Alessio J. Orlandi




Usergroups: None

Location: Bologna, Italy
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Sat 26 May, 2012 2:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The waist is actually wrong because there are no lower faulds. There should be a seam around the waist, but I made the doublet in just 4 pieces instead of 8 (now i'm making one in 8 pieces). At the moment I'm using a belt to sustain the harnesses, but I'm thinking of some modifications so that i can attach them to the doublet together with the hoses (I think I'll need a second raw of eyelets).
View user's profile Send private message
Lee Burge




Usergroups: None


Posts: 3
PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep, 2012 1:36 pm    Post subject: Specifically Italian arming doublets...?         Reply with quote

Hello All,

I noted that most, if not all of the images of specifically Italian arming doublets come from the first half of the 15th century. Are there any images of Italian arming doublets from the third quarter of the 15th century. Does their construction mimic that of earlier styles or did they become shorter and tighter (especially on the upper arms) as did doublets of more northerly areas of Europe? Thank you, and I look forward to reading any and all replies.

Vale,
Lee Burge
8, Sept 2012
View user's profile Send private message
Lee Burge




Usergroups: None


Posts: 3
PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Specifically Italian Arming Doublets (again)...         Reply with quote

P.S. I've also noted that Italian doublets seem to have more puffy or baggy upper sleeves, even when the garments are intended for wear under armour, and to support the same. A doublet needs to be snug to the body of the wearer so that the armour worn on top of and attached to it will also fit snugly and be without gaps and not restrict movement while in battle. The idea of wearing arm harness attched to a baggy or loose upper sleeve seems counter to this idea. Could it be that the upper sleeves, as seen on so many Italian arming doublets, are in fact padded and not simply baggy and loose. The lower sleeves certainly seem padded, as there are often visible stitching lines that seem to be holding multiple layers in place on lower sleeves, but could the upper sleeves be so padded as well, perhaps a bit more thickly than the lower sleeve? Thanks again!
View user's profile Send private message
Alessio J. Orlandi




Usergroups: None

Location: Bologna, Italy
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Tue 02 Oct, 2012 5:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually, everydays doublets (at least in Italy) often display ornamental stitching on the lower arms and faulds. That is probabaly also to give more rigidity to that part of the garment which is not usually padded.
Upper sleeves of italian (civil) doublets are baggy but probably not padded.
My arming doublet (see above) has baggy sleeves but they're not uncomfortable under the armour. Anyway, it seems strange that in Italy there is no trace of specific arming doublets.
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Griffin




Usergroups: 
Donating Members

Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Posts: 309
PostPosted: Fri 03 May, 2013 8:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

anyone have any better pics of this Pisanello fresco in the ducal palace in Mantova?


 Attachment: 43.15 KB, Viewed: 2887 times
pisanello1.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Kel Rekuta




Usergroups: 
Donating Members

Location: Toronto, Canada
Likes: 1 page
Posts: 574
PostPosted: Fri 03 May, 2013 9:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This page is pretty good for Pisanello's various works: http://www.thais.it/speciali/PISANELLO/Pisanello.htm

Most of the image banks have very reasonable prices for educational use of hi-res digital images. I think I paid $35-40 each for a series of fresco images from the Trinci Palazzo. I have a lot of art books with poorer images that I paid WAAAY more for. The detail in hi-res images is well worth the cost.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Anthony Farrow




Usergroups: None


Posts: 5
PostPosted: Mon 25 Nov, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Blaz Berlec wrote:
Excellent! The garment of the left knight (that has no backplate) is almost the same as on the Jens Boerners' photo from the first page. But it is even more interesting that kneeling figure which has complete cuirass has similar garment underneath, and it ends with decorative fringes that are also on Lübeck examples! I wonder what is the dating of the monument - it looks almost as if left and kneeling figure are from around 1440 - 1450, and the right one from a later date.


ca. 1470-1475 - 'Engelbrecht I (+1442) and Jan IV (+1475) van Nassau, Lords of Breda and the Lek', Grote Kerk, Breda, province of North Brabant, Holland
Photo by By roelipilami, Roel Renmans: http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1557...otostream/


I found this image fascinating.

What I have noticed from the various example of the stuff padded garments shown under armour in the thread, is that the leg harness attaches to the body underneath this garment. Given other posters have stated that leg harness has to point to something with a tight waist (and this matches my own experience) it cannot be pointing to this.

The statue here shows the maille voiders on a garment beneath the stiff quilted garment.

So, my interpretation is thus...

There are TWO garments. The first is the fitted, tight waisted garment shown in talhoffer and in here. The mail voiders point to this, the leg harness points to this.

Then, some harnesses incorporate a second layer of stiffened linen which acts for a defensive function rather than to hold the armour.

Thoughts..?
View user's profile Send private message
Mark T




PostPosted: Mon 25 Nov, 2013 3:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Anthony,

These kinds of observations/theories have been debated a bit.

In practice, it has led to modern suppliers offering a 'pourpoint' (such as this one from Gwen Nowrick / Black Swan Designs / Historic Enterprises).

I seem to recall a thread over at The Armour Archive, which seemed to end with a general position of 'we're not quite sure if they existed, or what they looked like, but we need something to solve this problem, so we'll use them, even if they're not historically demonstrable' ... if you do a search over there for 'pourpoint', you'll probably track it down.

I'm not sure what the latest consensus is, though - like you, I'd love to know!

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
View user's profile Send private message
Anthony Farrow




Usergroups: None


Posts: 5
PostPosted: Mon 25 Nov, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark T wrote:
Hi Anthony,

These kinds of observations/theories have been debated a bit.

In practice, it has led to modern suppliers offering a 'pourpoint' (such as this one from Gwen Nowrick / Black Swan Designs / Historic Enterprises).

I seem to recall a thread over at The Armour Archive, which seemed to end with a general position of 'we're not quite sure if they existed, or what they looked like, but we need something to solve this problem, so we'll use them, even if they're not historically demonstrable' ... if you do a search over there for 'pourpoint', you'll probably track it down.

I'm not sure what the latest consensus is, though - like you, I'd love to know!


Thanks - I am familar with Gwen's stuff, indeed I have one of her arming doublets. I think this a separate thing to the pourpoint though as you could not put voiders on a pourpoint,
View user's profile Send private message
Blaz Berlec




Usergroups: 
Upgraded Members

Location: Podgorje, Kamnik, Slovenia, Europe
Reading list: 1 book
Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 370
PostPosted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 7:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote



DE MAJESTATE
Giuniano Maio - Nardo Rapicano
Naploli 1492
DETTAGLIO FOLIO 29
Ferdinando I d'Aragona prende possesso di Volterra, davanti a lui un messo porta presenta la resa della città.

Although there are no obvious points or other means of attachment, I think this image shows late 15th century Italian arming garments - doublet or farsetto has maille skirt attached to it, and over that is giornea.

Interestingly, and a bit off topic, there's another maille skirt showing from under breastplate, which explains the "double layer of maille", which is sometimes shown in art, and which was proposed to be explained as whole hauberk under plate + skirt. This picture also shows attached skirt to the breastplate and backplate:




Dijon - BM - ms. 0493, folio 193v. Vergil. Opera. Parigi, fine XV sec.
Opera: Eclogae seu Bucolica/Georgica/Aeneis
Autore: Virgilio
Episodio: Enea rende omaggio a Marte con le armi di Massenzio.
[copyright: Enluminures - Institut de recherche et d'histoire des textes - CNRS]
Ministère de la culture

But to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat:



Poema Hesperis, folio 45v (MS 630, Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal, Paris, 1460 c.), scene depicting the camp of Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta. The text, by Basinio from Parma narrates the deeds performed by the leader of Rimini in 1448 and in 1453 against Alfonso and Ferdinand of Aragon.

This image shows what looks to be a guy putting maille hauberk over his doublet and maille skirt. Happy

I found the explanations and artwork on this forum: http://www.villaggiomedievale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3379


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Vincent Haure




Usergroups: None


Posts: 1
PostPosted: Thu 03 Jul, 2014 1:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great! Thanks a lot Blaz for those pics!
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Usergroups: None

Location: Sunny Southern California
Reading list: 5 books
Posts: 1,901
PostPosted: Thu 03 Jul, 2014 4:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Blaz,

They sure seem pretty clear in showing specific under garments for armour. Since doublets are often recorded with plate harnesses I think these are the most likely candidates.

I am not sure you can assume that one imagine with a mail skirt attached to the cuirass means that all references in literature of wearing a full harness and hauberk are invalid. I think the best you can say is that this seems to have been done.

I do think that these all look super late and I'd be surprised if it were still common to wear more than mail attachments to supplement plate by this point. The latest I know in literature for the harness and full hauberk is Monstrelet who goes until mid 15th.I know of no evidence after that.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Arming doublet of the 15th century
Page 6 of 6 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2013 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum