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Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional
Location: Jeffersonville USA Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 141
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Kel Rekuta
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Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional
Location: Jeffersonville USA Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 141
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Kel Rekuta
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 Posted: Mon 06 Jan, 2014 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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I went to the DMH museum database and found the sleeves Toby mentioned in the other thread. Neither they nor any other piece in the collection are cut away the same way as in the illustration but a number of them are quite short in the torso compared to the sleeve length.
I have to admit several of the examples there have changed my perspective on the construction of the sleeve assembly. As noted in the other thread, there is simply a band of mail across the back and some closure assembly in the front on many examples. It solves the problem of why the exemplar for my latest harness has a button and overlap on the integral mail collar. Gah! Back to the drawing board. 
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Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional
Location: Jeffersonville USA Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 141
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Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional
Location: Jeffersonville USA Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jan, 2014 11:09 am Post subject: |
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From that same collection, we have this one as well.
Inventarnr. W 5240
[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-b0HK4MZ9yv4/UsxSqKcSdLI/AAAAAAAACJs/p8HdoOH9HH0/s640/W%25205240.jpg[/img]
This is more like what I was looking for in the first place. I think we are looking the back here, but it is hard to tell.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://billyandcharlie.com/
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T. Kew
Location: London, UK Joined: 21 Apr 2012
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jan, 2014 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that you seem to be looking at the back. Those very thin joins on the far side look a lot like they could be fastenings for the front, so you pull it on and then join it shut there.
The other thing that could reduce the risk of it pulling out at the arms would be adding a few points to hold it to the arming doublet. I'm thinking about making one for myself and adding a few points around the base of the mail on my undergarments, so I can pull it on and then point it to hold it down, which seems like it should be pretty quick and fairly resistant to pulling out of place.
I wonder how the arms are constructed on these - could they be made in a similar way to a fencing plastron, where there isn't a seam in the armpit itself? That would seem to marginally increase the strength, as long as they're always being worn with spaulders and so on as well.
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Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional
Location: Jeffersonville USA Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 141
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| Posted: Tue 07 Jan, 2014 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| T. Kew wrote: |
I wonder how the arms are constructed on these - could they be made in a similar way to a fencing plastron, where there isn't a seam in the armpit itself? That would seem to marginally increase the strength, as long as they're always being worn with spaulders and so on as well. |
T.K,
Here is a thread on the subject of sleeve tailoring. http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=157253
I have a false start, but in the end I get it right.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://billyandcharlie.com/
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Mart Shearer
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Fri 17 Oct, 2014 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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It looks like this sleeve, E 105, from the same Swedish museum might be half of a pair. How else to explain the strips of mail hanging off of it?
http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus?service...detailView
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sat 18 Oct, 2014 10:14 am Post subject: |
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Mart, this particular museum has a huge stash of mail (http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus?service...0&sp=F), all seemingly photographed a long time ago in what at the time was probably very good quality black and white. The image you posted could be the same set or second set, it is very hard to tell for sure if this is a half or a whole one that is being draped over a bar.
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Mart Shearer
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Bartek Strojek
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| Posted: Sat 18 Oct, 2014 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Question for the knowledgeable - is the assumption that those were rather late 15th century innovation correct?
As in, most of the 1st half of century armor would have still been worn with full mail shirt, perhaps lighter one, of course.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sat 18 Oct, 2014 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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There are records of separate mail sleeves, worn under pairs of plates as early as the 1320s or 1330s. The question of when they stopped sewing them or pointing them to an aketon or doublet, and simply attached them to a linen shrug or only with belts or strips of mail is more problematical. The Vatican manuscript miniature has a written date of 1460 below it. Earlier than that is guessing.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sat 18 Oct, 2014 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Mart, it sure looks like a single sleeve but the image is so blurred its possible that it is a whole one that has been doubled over. I have been going over the images for awhile but the descriptions are so bad along with the fact that many of the photos are not clear that its hard to figure out exactly what many of the mail items are for sure, I mean their exact origin and method of manufacture, age etc.
This collection is a prime example of how museums let historically valuable items remain unidentified and unphotographed or badly photographed, I would love to spend some time cataloging their collection of mail.
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Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional
Location: Jeffersonville USA Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 141
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Mart Shearer
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 16 Jan, 2015 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Sun 25 Jan, 2015 2:09 am Post subject: |
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Just a wee theory.... wondering if the trunk hose on bottom left of pic in the inventorio illuminado are meant to go over the brayette? I'd like to try riding in some but I'm worried about what perching atop my expensive saddle in a buttock filled scouring pad will do to the fine leather.....
Its always struck me how closely the whole thing looks like one of those 'assemble your own knight' sticker albums/fridge magnets beloved of castle gift shops around the world....
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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