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Ben van Koert
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 Posted: Sun 19 Oct, 2014 10:33 am Post subject: |
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The real basic reason should be that the high gothic stuff is too late for the most popular 15th century reenactment period. Most groups do 1460's / 1470's and all proper 'gothic' armour is all post 1485.
There are some very cool photo gothic replica's out there, though.
I'm also very opinionated that the Italianate stuff is just as easy to get wrong as the gothic armour.
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Sun 19 Oct, 2014 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Well anything historical can of course be copied badly. But people miss the details and make poor assumptions without doing some basic research. It is only a hobby but you can improve your knowledge just by digging a little deeper.
So yes, most high gothic stuff is more applicable to the later 15th cent and is more typical of Northern continental Europe. It would not have been in England in the 1470s and unlikely on the Swiss/Burgundian campaigns. There is of course earlier gothic, but it's quite different. Taking sigismund as the prime example then most people bung on brass rivets and brass edging. Where is the gold? That's what the brass ( brass capped steel where the rivets are concerned) is there for. It's a fabulously wealthy noblemans harness after all.
Bert (hi!) is quite right, Italianate armour is just as easy to get wrong. I'm having a Mantova/Udine B2 made at the moment and The armourer has a list of my do's and don'ts plus I'll be visiting the work shop for regular looks at progress and adjustments.
Apart from its general shape, when examining replica armour I look at the rivets first, then the hinges and buckles, then the edges, whether they have a turn or not. These are all details that add to the overall finish (and cost of course) that matter to me and shows whether the maker is an armourer or is just making bent bits of metal for live action medieval cosplay participants.
A lot of it is about context and its human instinct to want to be a bit showy and pick and choose the best we can which is where historical sources become a catalogue to shop from in a rather random way.
Sorry if I'm gettinga bit ranty!
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 20 Oct, 2014 7:22 am Post subject: |
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I think another strike against fluted gothic armour is that many (most?/almost all?) of the examples that have survived history were built for more slender gentleman. They have the proper high, narrow waists.
Bad reproductions often put the waist too low, which makes it too wide. Or the body the armourer is trying to fit has a waist that is too low and wide. 
I love gothic plate. But I have neither the budget nor physique to fit such a harness. I'd look like a corrugated trash can...
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Mon 20 Oct, 2014 9:12 am Post subject: |
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I always assumed that Gothic armor was worn in the later part of the Burgundian-Swiss conflict. A lot of the depictions seem to show something looking like it. Just now looking at the popular depiction of the Battle of Grandson and I see it was made in 1515 
It actually seems like the 1460-1500 period is largely devoid of war, besides the above named conflict, the start of the Italian wars and some civil wars.
To Chad:
Wouldn't the metal act as a nice corset tucking the tummy in?
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Jeffrey Faulk
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| Posted: Mon 20 Oct, 2014 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Pieter B. wrote: | To Chad:
Wouldn't the metal act as a nice corset tucking the tummy in? |
It might do that, but it would not be very comfortable for long!
Chad's point is very well made though. Most of the best known pieces of Gothic armour are obviously made for men who were athletic and slender of build. This is (unfortunately for the re-enactor) a less common figure for the modern man. As such, when you try to make a modern Gothic suit, with most people it simply will not have as slim of a figure as the historic armours, so it may not 'look right'.
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Marik C.S.
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| Posted: Mon 20 Oct, 2014 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Jeffrey Faulk wrote: |
Chad's point is very well made though. Most of the best known pieces of Gothic armour are obviously made for men who were athletic and slender of build. This is (unfortunately for the re-enactor) a less common figure for the modern man. As such, when you try to make a modern Gothic suit, with most people it simply will not have as slim of a figure as the historic armours, so it may not 'look right'. |
Unfortunately today entirely the opposite is true.
As a rather slim person finding non-custom pieces that fit me well - or rather decent, even the stuff I have custom-made doesn't fit me as nicely as I'd like it to be for late 15th century wear - are quite the rare find.
Which in turn pushes up the cost.
And without the "one-size-fits-most" market that (cheaply made) generic - I wouldn't call it italian, that would be quite unfair to that particular style - armour has, gothic plate won't see much proliferation.
Europe - Where the History comes from. - Eddie Izzard
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Mon 20 Oct, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well thanks for the insights so far. However it's a shame such a fate has befallen Gothic armor.
Would anyone be able to answer this question I posted earlier?
| Quote: | | How does the mail pant (brayyene something) work? Does it have straps on the side or is one supposed to put it on like a normal trouser? Does it have quilted padding and is there any evidence for it protection the whole backside of the upper leg? |
And is there actually a difference in weight or protective value of Gothic armor compared to English or Italian armor? I could imagine slightly less prominent faulds and lack of tassets on some might save some weight but I am not sure.
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Edward Lee
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| Posted: Mon 20 Oct, 2014 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | even the stuff I have custom-made doesn't fit me |
Did you get fitted at the armourer's shop and still don't fit well or you just gave measurement over the phone?
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Marik C.S.
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| Posted: Mon 20 Oct, 2014 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Edward Lee wrote: | | Quote: | | even the stuff I have custom-made doesn't fit me |
Did you get fitted at the armourer's shop and still don't fit well or you just gave measurement over the phone? |
Not specifically talking armour, more about arming clothes and the latter.
And from what I've gathered from other people who dealt with that particular tailor, he doesn't do slim. There is always a bit too much around the belly and on finely tailored 15th century gear that just doesn't look right. Doesn't look bad but it certainly is on my list of things I'd like to improve about my kit.
However let's not go deeper into this out here, the topic at hand is too interesting to go off topic.
Europe - Where the History comes from. - Eddie Izzard
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Tue 21 Oct, 2014 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'd look like a corrugated trash can... |
Believe me Chad, I've seen worse than that!
Good italian armour should be just as pricey. it still needs to be made by a talented artisan after all. It is a little more gentler on the silhoutte of the more generously proportioned gent though, a distinct advantage for the modern man.
Trouble is, save a few unusual examples, no armour for the larger gent has really survived. The outsize one at Churburg is still in proportion, Henry 8's stuff of course but thats a unique range of equipment for a highly unique man. But does prove it can be done. If you stand at look at them as I often do its amazing how the Royal Armourers were as flattering as they were, they must have dreaded each enlargement and thus new harness, but the rose to the challenge each time.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Tue 21 Oct, 2014 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | even the stuff I have custom-made doesn't fit me
Not specifically talking armour, more about arming clothes and the latter. |
 fire your armourer AND tailor!
| Quote: | | How does the mail pant (brayyene something) work? Does it have straps on the side or is one supposed to put it on like a normal trouser? Does it have quilted padding and is there any evidence for it protection the whole backside of the upper leg? |
I have worn brayette with two sorts of fixing, one pointed to the armoing doublet and the other had strap and buckle affairs front and back. You possibly could do it on the side bit my feeling iis that whilst my own padding helps at the front and the buckles went into the small of my back on the rear they would sit on the hips and get pushed into the boney bits by anything on top. One pair had chamois leather hot pants as a liner and mighty fine I looked to. To myself in a mirror of course. But they were comfortable and gave no real problems. Never tried riding in them though. You undoubtedly can, just needs a bit more protection for the saddle. Loyal Heart in Rene of Anjou's Book of Love has a lot of mail below the waist and does a fair bit of riding.
Without padding all mail chafes and causes discomfort. I was given unlined chausses to ride in one and it wasnt pleasant.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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T. Kew
Location: London, UK Joined: 21 Apr 2012
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Tue 21 Oct, 2014 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Griffin wrote: | | Quote: | even the stuff I have custom-made doesn't fit me
Not specifically talking armour, more about arming clothes and the latter. |
:idea: fire your armourer AND tailor!
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A tip I was given a while ago, and something I'm following up with now that I'm starting to order custom kit, is simple: Pick an armourer with a similar build to you.
Obviously, make sure they can make armour of the style you want, are good at what they do, and so on - but all other things being roughly equal, go for a similar build.
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Raman A
Location: United States Joined: 25 Aug 2011
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Tue 21 Oct, 2014 11:45 am Post subject: |
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To be fair it's not just Gothic. You don't see a whole lot of guys in Maximillian or Greenwich harnesses running around either. People want to wear the armor from the period they like the most, which is usually 13th, 14th, or 15th up to about the third quarter. After that you start getting into the more early modern period which people don't seem to like quite as much.
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Tue 21 Oct, 2014 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Griffin wrote: | | Quote: | even the stuff I have custom-made doesn't fit me
Not specifically talking armour, more about arming clothes and the latter. |
fire your armourer AND tailor!
| Quote: | | How does the mail pant (brayyene something) work? Does it have straps on the side or is one supposed to put it on like a normal trouser? Does it have quilted padding and is there any evidence for it protection the whole backside of the upper leg? |
I have worn brayette with two sorts of fixing, one pointed to the armoing doublet and the other had strap and buckle affairs front and back. You possibly could do it on the side bit my feeling iis that whilst my own padding helps at the front and the buckles went into the small of my back on the rear they would sit on the hips and get pushed into the boney bits by anything on top. One pair had chamois leather hot pants as a liner and mighty fine I looked to. To myself in a mirror of course. But they were comfortable and gave no real problems. Never tried riding in them though. You undoubtedly can, just needs a bit more protection for the saddle. Loyal Heart in Rene of Anjou's Book of Love has a lot of mail below the waist and does a fair bit of riding.
Without padding all mail chafes and causes discomfort. I was given unlined chausses to ride in one and it wasnt pleasant. |
Thanks for the reply.
But how should I imagine the a buckle and strap at the front and back? I couldn't really find a picture of it online.
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Tue 21 Oct, 2014 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Pick an armourer with a similar build to you. |
Well, each to their own. I prefer to go with a craftsperson who has a proven track record. My first 'good' armour was made by someone who was about 6" shorter and a similar amount wider than me! And it fits like it was sprayed on. Its nothing to do with how close his body was to mine, it was my willingness to make many visits and insist on getting it right. I'm one of the few people anywhere lucky enough to have a Greenwich armour of any sort of quality made for me and that took a heck of a lot of sitting around in a workshop waiting for things to happen. I'd often make a long drive just to have him make one hammer blow. But it was utterly bespoke and an utter joy to wear.
Much better to leave your body with the armourer. Nowadays many tend to use casts of parts. Very useful, especially if your armourer is across the atlantic!
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But how should I imagine the a buckle and strap at the front and back? I couldn't really find a picture of it online.
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Not sure there are any. Leather elements on mail are pretty rare, cant recall a buckle remaining. But neither do any have points and there can't be too many ways of making them stay up and in place comfortably.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Edward Lee
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| Posted: Tue 21 Oct, 2014 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Ah yes the sacrificial taped T shirt for body casting. It looks to me that high gothic has a very close fit to the waist area, the back plate shows it even more.
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Tue 21 Oct, 2014 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Mark Griffin"] | Quote: |
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But how should I imagine the a buckle and strap at the front and back? I couldn't really find a picture of it online.
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Not sure there are any. Leather elements on mail are pretty rare, cant recall a buckle remaining. But neither do any have points and there can't be too many ways of making them stay up and in place comfortably. |
Is the upper leg protection attached to the doublet in any way in Gothic armor? If so did the straps go under or over the mail hotpants? Again I can't seem to find a picture of this.
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Wed 22 Oct, 2014 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Is the upper leg protection attached to the doublet in any way in Gothic armor? If so did the straps go under or over the mail hotpants? Again I can't seem to find a picture of this. |
Well if you dont attach it its going to flap about all over the place.
Your options are the oft used but never proven 'arming belt' beloved in some circles, and attatchment to the doublet. This is the only real way of supporting legs in the the late 15th cent I'm aware of.as the tops of the cuisse are nearly always hidden under mail or the fauld/tassets in art sources.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Looking at one of the reproductions of the Sigismund armor I noticed that there is a short strap at the side of the cuisses (upper leg armor) attached to the faulds. It's not laced at the front like Italian and English armor but at the side with a leather strap.
Could anyone answer my other question on how Gothic armor preforms different (if it does) compared to other armors of the time? Would it be lighter than and less protective than other armors, does the fluting actually do anything besides looking good?
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Jeffrey Faulk
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| Posted: Mon 27 Oct, 2014 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Pieter B. wrote: |
Could anyone answer my other question on how Gothic armor preforms different (if it does) compared to other armors of the time? Would it be lighter than and less protective than other armors, does the fluting actually do anything besides looking good? |
Performance is similar to other armours of the period as I understand it. The only real difference is in its style and flourishes. The fluting has a definite purpose; a common comparison is to corrugated metal roofing. A flat piece of metal is not particularly stiff, but when you add corrugation, suddenly it becomes very rigid along the line that the corrugations run. The fluting performs the same task-- it helps stiffen and reinforce the armour, and may permit a slightly lighter gauge of plate to be used.
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