Look at the upper right corner and you'll see a couple of rings with three rings going through top and bottom.
Len,
Good eye, but I only see isolated examples (another at the neck split on the left). The rest looks like normal 4:1 to me. Perhaps a weave error or bad repair?
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Good eye, but I only see isolated examples (another at the neck split on the left). The rest looks like normal 4:1 to me. Perhaps a weave error or bad repair?
Attachment: 65.82 KBI'm sure I'm seeing 6 in 1 everywhere. I think what you're seeing is a ring missing allowing you to see the six rings. If you look at the ring to the left of it you can see three rings going through the bottom.
| Mart Shearer wrote: |
| I don't see it to be 6:1.
|
It does say "each rivet ring holds six neighboring rings".
Here is a link to the book that seems to have some information on this mail.
Inventory of the Moscow armory. The inventory # seems to be 4469.
http://books.google.com/books?id=t41ZAAAAYAAJ...mp;f=false
#4469.
| Quote: |
| КОЛЬ ЧУГА ХV1 ВѣкА. Желѣзная, кольца большія круглыя, крѣплены на два гвоздя; воротъ круглый разрѣзной, горловина приставная изъ мелкихъ желѣзныхъ колецъ, крѣпленныхъ на гвоздь; подолъ разрѣзной, сзади оторваны три ряда колецъ, рукава короткіе; у ворота мѣдная запона съ чеканнымъ ободкомъ, была серебрена. Длиною кольчуга пятнадцать вершковъ, шириною одинъ аршинъ семь вершковъ, въ подолѣ тринадцать вершковъ; вѣсу тридцать одинъ фунтъ двадцать шесть золотниковъ.
Въ описи 1835 года ч. 1V стр. 681 записана подъ N? 5662. |
Theo posted this on AA. Not sure anyone caught this. It looks like it reads: 1. Coat of mail, German, 15th century. The collar and chest are of double mail. Does that say chest ? It looks like chest.
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| Len Parker wrote: |
| Theo posted this on AA. Not sure anyone caught this. It looks like it reads: 1. Coat of mail, German, 15th century. The collar and chest are of double mail. Does that say chest ? It looks like chest.
|
It says "Metropolitan Museum", I am sure that somewere hidden in the Mets collection are the answers to many questions.
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This may be the Russian hauberk, it is described as being from the 16th century, State museums of the Moscow Kremlin.
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Last edited by Eric S on Fri 31 Oct, 2014 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
| Quote: |
| Mark, thanks for sending me your pictures, I am going through them, there are a few really interesting one. Here is my first question, there are two gaunlets with intact mail mittens, are these both early Milanese gauntlets? The mail mittens look very similar but the gauntlets are obviously not a pair. |
sorry for delay, I'm doing 18 hr days on a tv shoot at the moment...
They are not a pair as in belonging together, made by the same maker etc but its rather handy its a left and a right. From experience a lot of us buy pairs of gauntlets and end up using odd ones. So who knows, they may have been the property of the same chap, or just odds and sods. They are both from the arsenal of Sion castle (Castle Valere to give it its proper name) but when they got there is not known to me. Maybe since intitial deposit?
The descriptions are as follows:
Right hand maker/production place unknown, 1430-1445.
Left hand, Italian, 1420-1430, makers mark 'DE'.
| Mark Griffin wrote: | ||
sorry for delay, I'm doing 18 hr days on a tv shoot at the moment... They arenot a pair as in belonging together, made by the same maker etc but its rather handy its a left and a right. From experience a lot of us buy pairs of gauntlets and end up using odd ones. So who knows, they may have been the property of the same chap, or just odds and sods. They are both from the arsenal of Sion castle (Castle Valere to give it its proper name) but when they got there is not know. Maybe since intitial deposit? The descriptions are as follows: Right hand maker/production place unknown, 1430-1445. Left hand, Italian, 1420-1430, makers mark 'DE'. |
Thanks Mark, no rush, here is something interesting that was mixed in with the European armor pictures you send, it looks like Moro (Philipine) mail and plate armor, carabao horn (Philippine buffalo) and butted brass mail.
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Moro (Philipine) mail and plate armor, carabao horn (Philippine buffalo) and butted brass mail.
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Last edited by Eric S on Sun 02 Nov, 2014 2:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
Now you've set me a task...
Its a horse bard from a european parade armour so is all steel. Its not ottoman, or anything else more exotic. Can't for the life of me spot it in any of the overall pics but of course i took that one because of the blueing on the steel, not the mail.
From memory its late 16th/early 17th. But who knows. Bet somewhere there is a record but its unlikely the museum staff will know. It's the worst museum of lack of info and care of the collection I have ever been in. Just heart destroyingly depressing to see people touching stuff, rust forming as you look at it...
Its a horse bard from a european parade armour so is all steel. Its not ottoman, or anything else more exotic. Can't for the life of me spot it in any of the overall pics but of course i took that one because of the blueing on the steel, not the mail.
From memory its late 16th/early 17th. But who knows. Bet somewhere there is a record but its unlikely the museum staff will know. It's the worst museum of lack of info and care of the collection I have ever been in. Just heart destroyingly depressing to see people touching stuff, rust forming as you look at it...
Hi guys,
Because I'm not satisfied of the modern indian maille reproduction anymore,all of You inspired me to start some experiments of making historical maille and who knows...one day maybe a hauberk. :)
But...I have some issues in my head and the first one is,is there any evidences for "round" rivets actually?
I mean the rivets with non triangular shape.
I'm start to thinking that in all of the history of the european maille the rivets are triangular...
Is that correct or not?
Regards,
Viktor
Because I'm not satisfied of the modern indian maille reproduction anymore,all of You inspired me to start some experiments of making historical maille and who knows...one day maybe a hauberk. :)
But...I have some issues in my head and the first one is,is there any evidences for "round" rivets actually?
I mean the rivets with non triangular shape.
I'm start to thinking that in all of the history of the european maille the rivets are triangular...
Is that correct or not?
Regards,
Viktor
Round rivets were the norm, not the exception, all over the world from the 3rd century BC onwards. Wedge-riveted mail seems to have been only made in southern Germany between the 13th-16th centuries.
| Viktor Asenov wrote: |
| Hi guys,
Because I'm not satisfied of the modern indian maille reproduction anymore,all of You inspired me to start some experiments of making historical maille and who knows...one day maybe a hauberk. :) But...I have some issues in my head and the first one is,is there any evidences for "round" rivets actually? I mean the rivets with non triangular shape. I'm start to thinking that in all of the history of the european maille the rivets are triangular... Is that correct or not? Regards, Viktor |
Victor, the problem is that there are just not many well photographed examples of early round riveted mail. Of the few remaining examples there are not many close up, detailed photographs showing the inside and outside of the links.
Even a good photograph of the outside of the rivet doesn't always prove the shape, as we've discussed before on the Tofta coif. Fortunately, the Tofta coif's riveted rings have been sectioned, and the round rivet is quite clear.
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Attachment: 110.58 KB| Dan Howard wrote: |
| Wedge-riveted mail seems to have been only made in southern Germany between the 13th-16th centuries. |
Dan,
While we have good evidence of wedge rivets being used in mail of known provenence due to signet rings being made in southern Germany, I think it might be too premature to say that it was never produced in Milan, Cologne, or the Netherlands.
I suspect a study of Italian mail attached to datable plate armors (as mail sabatons, below the demi-greave, etc.) might give us a better idea of how Italian mail differed from German examples.
| Dan Howard wrote: |
| Round rivets were the norm, not the exception, all over the world from the 3rd century BC onwards. Wedge-riveted mail seems to have been only made in southern Germany between the 13th-16th centuries. |
Dan, what about Italian wedge riveted mail?
| Eric S wrote: | ||
Dan, what about Italian wedge riveted mail? |
Just because it was found in Italy doesn 't mean that it was made in Italy.
| Dan Howard wrote: | ||||
Just because it was found in Italy doesn 't mean that it was made in Italy. |
Dan, when you viewed some wedge riveted mail from a hauberk that I showed on another thread you said it looked Italian to you.
| Dan Howard wrote: |
| My first guess would be Italian - maybe 15th-16th century. |
Thank's all of You!
I'll make some deeper research,but the biggest problem will be the shaping of the rivets.
Regards,
Viktor
I'll make some deeper research,but the biggest problem will be the shaping of the rivets.
Regards,
Viktor
| Eric S wrote: | ||
Dan, when you viewed some wedge riveted mail from a hauberk that I showed on another thread you said it looked Italian to you.
|
I thought it was round riveted.
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