Yep, tha'ts how the chains are done on the HungaroPolish blades, too...
I can't afford that sucker, but WOW. Some nice images, for certain.
| Nate C. wrote: |
| Hi Alina,
Thanks for the Kilij pics! I think the Kilij has to be one of my favorite curved blades :cool: . To add to the collection of pics, here is one that was/is offered by Lion Gate A&A. Cheers, |
Now that is a beautiful sword!
| Russ Mitchell wrote: |
| Yep, tha'ts how the chains are done on the HungaroPolish blades, too...
I can't afford that sucker, but WOW. Some nice images, for certain. |
Well most of the scholars I've read on Eastern European/Middle Eastern stuff are Islamicists. This of course means that everything resembling what is in the Middle East came from Islamic sources because Islam is "culturally superior." I can't honestly tell you who borrowed what from whom but I think that Poland and Hungary both were primary routes into Europe for Eurasian steppe nomads. In addition, they were also two regions in extensive contact with the Muslim world (moreso Hungary than Poland). Dr. David Nicolle seems to postulate that Islamic saber design came from the steppe peoples who invaded via Persia after the 11th century AD. I'm not an expert on this theory but that allows us at least two ways for Hungary and Poland to have similar developments:
1) Steppe ----->Islam------>Poland/Hungary
2) Steppe ----->Poland/Hungary independent development.
Now of course the Eastern Europeans themselves will likely be nationalistic and argue theory #2. But I'm not qualified enough to step in and say what's what. For me I'll just store it in my memory bank that they are in fact similar for some unknown reason.
Lovely swords. I really like the "baddawi" hilted swords with a slight curve like the Hungarian one. Really started to like that style when I some weeks ago saw a thread on SFI about a contemporary arab saif.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46439
Attachment: 29.5 KB
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46439
Attachment: 29.5 KB| Patrick Kelly wrote: | ||
Now that is a beautiful sword! |
Isn't it though? I especially like the way the gilding was done. It has(had) just enough to be elegant without being gaudy. If it weren't for the fact that it was well out of my price range, I'd be able to give you much better pictures :D . One thing that's cool about it is the patterns are on the spine of the blade too.
Cheers,
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A shot of the blade's spine
| Stefan Toivonen wrote: |
| Lovely swords. I really like the "baddawi" hilted swords with a slight curve like the Hungarian one. Really started to like that style when I some weeks ago saw a thread on SFI about a contemporary arab saif.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46439 |
Yeah the Arab saif has long been one of my favorites. Now, I'm preferring those antiques that I showed with the baddawi hilt and the very slight curve.
Ooo, now that is nice! While I'm a Euro fan at heart, I can't help lusting after some of these gorgeous middle eastern sabers!
| Bill Grandy wrote: |
| Ooo, now that is nice! While I'm a Euro fan at heart, I can't help lusting after some of these gorgeous middle eastern sabers! |
I'm European at heart too but the mysteries of the orient tug at me from time to time.
Expensive book on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem...:EOAB:US:6
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem...:EOAB:US:6
Great thread Alina. How've you been?
Check out this Ottoman kilic/shamshir:
[ Linked Image ]
The graceful shamshir-like curve is, to my eye, complemented by the small yelman. I wonder how that thing handles... :D
Check out this Ottoman kilic/shamshir:
[ Linked Image ]
The graceful shamshir-like curve is, to my eye, complemented by the small yelman. I wonder how that thing handles... :D
| Andrew Winston wrote: |
| Great thread Alina. How've you been?
Check out this Ottoman kilic/shamshir: [ Linked Image ] The graceful shamshir-like curve is, to my eye, complemented by the small yelman. I wonder how that thing handles... :D |
Andrew! I've missed you. I've been well, thanks. I won that topkapi museum book I posted the link to earlier so that makes me even happier. Gorgeous Ottoman shamshir you posted! It is a bit too curved for my tastes but I think the form is interesting. It looks like a shamshir but has the sharpened false edge like a kilij.
It's kinda complicated: The Poles' arms were always along generally western lines, with back and forth to the Baltic stuff -- you won't find pukelhelms in France, whereas teh Hungarians had sabres from way, way back (and even more complex, had large numbers of Muslim troops until the Angevins took over and kicked out everybody who wasn't a latin christian). I agree that curved swords only reach the middle east during the Crusading era -- the artwork is very clear on the shift from broad, straight blades to curved ones. On the other hand, during the period when the Poles and Hungarians are both under Ottoman and Persian influence, adaptations occur that get very weird. For instance, the Poles develop the karabela (possibly the world's best sabre design) and thumbring hussar sabres, the Croats and Germans take the sabre from the Hungarians and Poles and turn it into the Dusagge, with much different characteristics, and the Hungarians, having gotten sick of getting the shaft from the Austrians, take the Ottoman and Persian designs as a fashion statement, and mix it with baroque design.
| Russ Mitchell wrote: |
| It's kinda complicated: The Poles' arms were always along generally western lines, with back and forth to the Baltic stuff -- you won't find pukelhelms in France, whereas teh Hungarians had sabres from way, way back (and even more complex, had large numbers of Muslim troops until the Angevins took over and kicked out everybody who wasn't a latin christian). I agree that curved swords only reach the middle east during the Crusading era -- the artwork is very clear on the shift from broad, straight blades to curved ones. On the other hand, during the period when the Poles and Hungarians are both under Ottoman and Persian influence, adaptations occur that get very weird. For instance, the Poles develop the karabela (possibly the world's best sabre design) and thumbring hussar sabres, the Croats and Germans take the sabre from the Hungarians and Poles and turn it into the Dusagge, with much different characteristics, and the Hungarians, having gotten sick of getting the shaft from the Austrians, take the Ottoman and Persian designs as a fashion statement, and mix it with baroque design. |
I saw a picture of the karabela and it looks almost exactly like Islamic designs. In fact one of the first pictures I showed bears a strong resemblance to the karabela I looked at.
To my eye, nothing you've posted yet looks like a karabela... though the blade on the last one with the scentstopper pommel looks *very* Euro to me. But since we're coming at them from opposite angles, perhaps the interesting thing is that we're basically not surprising each other.
| Russ Mitchell wrote: |
| To my eye, nothing you've posted yet looks like a karabela... though the blade on the last one with the scentstopper pommel looks *very* Euro to me. But since we're coming at them from opposite angles, perhaps the interesting thing is that we're basically not surprising each other. |
Could you post some karabela pictures here? I don't think it would be off topic and it would give me the chance to compare since I don't have the Eastern Euro sources immediately available to me.
| Alina Boyden wrote: | ||
Andrew! I've missed you. I've been well, thanks. I won that topkapi museum book I posted the link to earlier so that makes me even happier. Gorgeous Ottoman shamshir you posted! It is a bit too curved for my tastes but I think the form is interesting. It looks like a shamshir but has the sharpened false edge like a kilij. |
I was wondering where you've been hanging out. :D
I don't spend much time on the forums lately (with the exception of the eewrs). This board is outstanding, but I've usually little to add unless an "ethnographic" thread like this pops up. Professional and family commitments are clashing with some writing and a museum project. Not enough time in the day.
Nice grab on that Topkapi book. I've been on the prowl for it for some time. I'd also like to pick up Elgood's The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries, but even the copies on Amazon approach $300. I did, however, just get his recent book on Indian weapons, and highly recommend it. I haven't had the time to read it completely, but it is typically beautiful, well written and painstakingly researched. He's a good guy, too. If Manoucher's book gets published, we may soon be wallowing in previously unpublished primary research.
That kilic/shamshir was posted by Charles Suanders on the eewrs for identification recently. I thought you might like it as it's unusual.
Nice to talk with you again.
Best regards,
Andrew
| Alina Boyden wrote: | ||
Could you post some karabela pictures here? I don't think it would be off topic and it would give me the chance to compare since I don't have the Eastern Euro sources immediately available to me. |
Here's some recent threads from the eewrs that might interest you:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?...t=karabela
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?...t=karabela
(Nathan and Patrick, if linking of threads from other boards violates policy or is unwelcome, please delete my post and accept my apologies).
Andrew;
Very nifty and informative threads, thank you for posting them!
Cheers,
Gordon
Very nifty and informative threads, thank you for posting them!
Cheers,
Gordon
Thanks Andrew! Picture #21 on the second thread you linked to was especially meaningful to me because I held an antique of those that looked almost exactly the same and was in perfect condition. It was by far the nicest sword I've ever held. The balance was amazing, the grip was a bit thick but was comfortable, and it had the property of feeling weightless while still giving the impression of blade presence. Hard to describe. I really, really, wanted it but I didn't have 1200 dollars.
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