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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Sat 11 Jun, 2005 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anything's possible. Vikings could have worn lorica segmentata too - there is nothing to say they didn't. At the moment, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that native Scandinavians wore any metal armour other than mail in Scandinavia during the viking period. In time, evidence might turn up to change this. Yes the Varangians would have been issued lamellar if they didn't have their own armour. However, there is no documentation to suggest that they were permitted to take it home when they left service. How many US troops are allowed to keep their body armour after leaving the Army? Yes some Russ who lived and fought in the East might have worn local variants of lamellar - but can a second or third generation Russian really be called a Viking?
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Hisham Gaballa





Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun, 2005 6:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry Dan, I have to disagree with you here. Lorica Segmentata was used by the Romans up until the beginning of the 3rd century AD, it's use seems to have died out by the middle of the 3rd century. It is therefore extremely unlikely that it would have been used by the Norse 6 centuries later Big Grin. Lamellar on the other hand was widely used in Eastern Europe, the Near east and Asia from the 3rd century AD until the 15th century. The Norse in addition to being far-ranging raiders were also far ranging traders. There is little doubt that they would have encountered lamellar armour in their travels. Since lamellar armour is easier to manufacture than mail, it was also probably cheaper. Poorer Viking warriors who couldn't afford mail may well have bought (or looted) lamellar armour. Happy

Finally fragments of lamellar dating 800-950 AD, have been found in Birka in Sweden.
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Douglas S





Joined: 18 Feb 2004

Posts: 177

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun, 2005 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin McCracken wrote:
One thing that might help to answer this quandary is to think about climate. I live in Michigan and I don't think I would last too long outdoors in a battle with just my skin. Now, I know I'm not as manly as a Nordic warrior, but something tells me they weren't quite that manly either. Even in the heat of battle it would be too cold (depending on the time of year) to wear nothing under a maile shirt. Moreover, depending on the weather I doubt anyone would be fighting without a shirt or coat of some sort. I'm not an expert on Nordic cultures but I think it would be safe to guess that their winter clothing would either be thick cloth or furs. Either one would have given them some protection.

These are just my thoughts. I have no proof for anything I am saying.

Ben
--------------------------------------------------------------
My companion is my sword.


Yep, there would be several reasons for wearing something under mail. Heat and cold also make mail into a radiator. Also, mail rusts and a tunic could be ruined by the stain. The soldier's life is 90% marching and waiting for something to happen and comfort is important.

I believe there is some mention in Charlemagne's reign of gameson-like garments.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hisham Gaballa wrote:
Lorica Segmentata was used by the Romans up until the beginning of the 3rd century AD, it's use seems to have died out by the middle of the 3rd century. It is therefore extremely unlikely that it would have been used by the Norse 6 centuries later.


I know very well when the last evidence for plate lorica was dated. But according to your logic anyone could have worn it because there is no evidence to suggest they didn't.

Quote:
Finally fragments of lamellar dating 800-950 AD, have been found in Birka in Sweden.


The Birka find has been demonstrated to have not been of Scandinavian manufacture (it is Central Asian or Siberian) and not worn by a native Scandinavian. Apparently the burial practices around that part of the site were distinctly un-Scandinavian. Until there is some direct evidence linking Scandinavians with lamellar, all you have is empty speculation.
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Gabriel Stevens




Location: St. Louis
Joined: 02 Oct 2003

Posts: 145

PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun, 2005 10:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The English used essentially the same strategy in each of their major victories in the Hundred Years war. They formed up their battles, dismounted troops to the center flanked by archers, in a strong defensive position (usually with some sort of natural obstacles between themselves and the enemy) Each time the French came to them. I've heard the muddy ground theory applied to Agincourt as well. Regardless it was the French army which was the least diciplined of the two (They attacked the Geonese crossbowmen at Crecy) and despite the numerical advantage in each of the engagements they were defeated. Who fought the smarter fight? By the time we get to Agincourt you have a small sick, starving, English army drawn up against a much larger French force and the French are scratching their heads going "Well here we are again, and oh yeah it rained last night too, and I can hear that English king from here giving a speech...." Laughing Out Loud

As for the original topic of the thread my guess would be that mail would go to those that could afford it, and then whatever was next best for the next level of wealth/social status and right on down the line (however many steps that might be). Also I was under the impression that swords were more a wealthy status symbol so I've always saw the average arms of a Viking as being spear, shield, and axe.
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Risto Rautiainen




Location: Kontiolahti, Finland
Joined: 23 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Mon 13 Jun, 2005 2:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Maccarrone wrote:
As we've been saying, I don't think I'd agree that they weren't using some sort of padding -- but would multiple layers of ordinary garments perform that job well enough?


This is how I would like to see it as a native of the north. Wool can be used to produce these felt garments by boiling and using soap (or urine -echh), a very old method know to almost all cultures. By felting you can produce very thick woollen garments, which would provide quite good blunt trauma protection. Put two of those on and I belive you have as good protection as a gambeson. Normally you could use them as winter clothes.

So, if you want to wear something they most certainly had those days, put on two of the thickest woollen shirts you can get.
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