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Gordon Frye
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 Posted: Tue 14 Jun, 2005 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Matthew, perhaps in your copious free time you can dig these quotes up, but as I recall it was stated in a number of the old tomes that the pikes need to be "armed in corselets of sufficient proof against pike" or words to that effect. This would suggest that there were on the market sufficient corselets that were not pike proof to make it worth the mention.
One thing that crops up too is the different needs viz proof against armes blanche and firearms, ie hardened steel virsus wrought iron. It would be interesting to test this out. I know that the curators at Graz did their experiment of shooting holes in an original ca. 1570 breastplate with original wheellock and matchlock firearms, but I don't recall as to whether or not they tried bashing it with a pike or halberd.
Cheers,
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 14 Jun, 2005 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Gordon;
That could be annoying to have your pike proof breast plate easily penetrated by shot or have your shot proof breast plate easily penetrated by pike. 
The best of both might be case hardened armour. ( Hard on the outside with a soft chewy center.   )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Tue 14 Jun, 2005 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Gordon;
That could be annoying to have your pike proof breast plate easily penetrated by shot or have your shot proof breast plate easily penetrated by pike.
The best of both might be case hardened armour. ( Hard on the outside with a soft chewy center. ) |
Jean;
Funny, I was just talking to someone about that very thing... mind's like a sieve these days though! Must have been Matthew, so hopefully he can chime in on this one, too! Anyway, I do believe that there were attempts at this, though I'm not certain as to their results.
Cheers,
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Stephen Hand
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| Posted: Wed 15 Jun, 2005 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: Arrrggghhh.... too many replies to make |
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| David Evans wrote: |
George Silver, one of the London Fencing masters. I'm not happy with his 8' to 9' Pike. |
Actually Silver was a gentleman who rather looked down upon mere fencing masters and other chaps who worked for a living. He is laying out the perfect length for a half pike for use with his system of combat, not stating that they were this length.
| Quote: | | Stephen....Did you ever finish the 1595 Dutch manual? I'd be interested in seeing what differences there are! |
Differences to what? I have a complete transcription of it, but have not completed the translation. About 5% of the words aren't in modern Dutch and I'm slowly tracking them down. The manual is primarily sword, very similar to Di Grassi it would seem, with some sword and shield, halberd and pike. I was hoping to get it translated and written up for SPADA II, but as that's being laid out as we speak, it will have to go in the next edition.
On the subject of pikes piercing armour, decent armour is very hard to penetrate. Early armour was thin and hard, to prevent points from biting, while later armour was softer and thicker to soak up the kinetic energy of bullets. Howver, the sheer weight of steel makes these armours also proof against points. In any case, although the pike has a lot of ooomph behind it, it's not enough to pierce half way decent armour. But many pikemen didn't have armour, and much of the equipment (not just armour) imported by the Royalists in particular in the ECW was of very shoddy construction.
Cheers
Stephen
Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield
Stoccata School of Defence
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Gordon Frye
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