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Carl Massaro
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 Posted: Fri 26 Aug, 2005 12:21 pm Post subject: 'Reins ring' on a basket hilt? |
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Years ago I saw a guy who was selling what he claimed was a John Simpson, antique basket-hilted sword. It was definitely an antique, and it was beautiful example of a basket hilt and extremely well balanced. I don't know if it was a actually a John Simpson. He was asking 5k.
He claimed that this basket hilt had what is know as a "reins ring" or "rein loop". Basically, it was an oval-shaped opening on the left side of the basket. The seller claimed that it was used to holding horse reins while one is also holding their sword. I have never heard of this.
I came across a website selling another John Simpson basket hilt that also mentions the rein ring.
If you scroll down, you will see " EXTREMELY RARE SIGNED SCOTTISH BASKETHILT BACKSWORD BY JOHN SIMPSON THE ELDER OF GLASGOW WITH HERALDIC JACOBITE ENGRAVED “FARARA” BLADE"
Here is the link: http://finearmsltd.com/european_weapons.htm
It says: This sword was made to be used on horseback as it incorporates an inboard oval ‘reins ring’.
Was this common on basket-hilts? If so, was it strictly seen on 18th century examples or was it used in other centuries?
Thanks,
Carl
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 26 Aug, 2005 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Yes it seems to have been common, particularly on english cavalry baskethilts.
For more detail we need our resident basket case........................
Mac?
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Fri 26 Aug, 2005 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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We had a discussion in this thread http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...t=horseman
about when the first reign ovals appeared !
As far as the information we've come across, it looks to be late 17th century, early 18th century, onwards !
Mac
* Apologies .... A few of the picture links are now broken !
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
Last edited by Thomas McDonald on Sat 27 Aug, 2005 1:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Fri 26 Aug, 2005 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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From Charles Whitelaw's book 'Scottish Arms Makers' .
 Attachment: 95.28 KB
[ Download ]
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Fri 26 Aug, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Volume 7 No. 3 issue of The Canadian Journal of Arms Collectiing has a good article entitled:
The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword, by Anthony D. Darling.
If anyone wishes to read this one I can e-mail scans of the 19 pages (Ye best have Broadband :-) Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Carl Massaro
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| Posted: Fri 26 Aug, 2005 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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That's awesome! Thanks guys, you have all been incredibly informative.
Lst question: where, if possible can I purchase a Vince evans or E.B Erickson baskethilt? Their work is absolutley amazing. How much should I expect to pay?
-Carl
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 26 Aug, 2005 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Vince's website: http://www.arscives.com/vevans/
Best to contact him directly for information on cost and availability.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Fri 26 Aug, 2005 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Eljay can be contacted via this sites Private Messaging system :
Just type in E.B. Erickson
http://eljay.myArmoury.com/
Good luck, Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Carl Massaro
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| Posted: Fri 26 Aug, 2005 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you, guys!
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Sat 27 Aug, 2005 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Just FYI ....
This piece had been listed on Ebay a few times but no one came close to the minimum bid !
Mac
Attachment: 62.48 KB
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Sat 27 Aug, 2005 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Um.... How would one use a rein's ring? that sounds to me like trying to shift gears with the same hand holding the cell phone.
Wouldn't you give the horse all sorts of confusing information if you attached your steering device to your 'wack the enemy' device? 
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Sat 27 Aug, 2005 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| George Hill wrote: | Um.... How would one use a rein's ring? that sounds to me like trying to shift gears with the same hand holding the cell phone.
Wouldn't you give the horse all sorts of confusing information if you attached your steering device to your 'wack the enemy' device? |
Hi George
The rein ring feature was designed to allow you to control your horse, while keeping sword in hand, and using your free hand to draw & shoot your pistol !
Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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E.B. Erickson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 28 Aug, 2005 6:02 am Post subject: |
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Or/also...with sword in hand, the rein oval enables both hands to be holding the reins for control of the horse, and you let go of the reins in the sword hand as you contact the opposition.
--ElJay
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Carl Massaro
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| Posted: Thu 01 Sep, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Great info, guys.
Would anyone here happen to know if $5,000 US is an approprate amount to pay for a, late 17th or early 18th century John Simpson Basket hilt in good condition? It still had some ray skin on the handle that looked quite old. The only reference I have is that the antique 18th century basket hilts I have seen online were going for the 4-5k range.
I am going to see that guy this weekend and I want to look at the sword again if he still has it. If it has the "I S" over "G" mark on the basket, then that should indicate that it was made by John Simpson. The "I" is the letter used in Latin for "J", so "I S" must mean "John Simpson", and the "G" presumably stands for "Glasgow". John Simpson's son was also a famous basket hilt maker, is mark was "I S Y" over "G" The "Y" presumably stans for "Younger".
I really don't have the money for this at all, and I am even in debt, but something about this sword has grabbed me lately. I lie awake at night thinking about it. I remember it being light, agile and incredibly well balanced.
Thomas,
I just realized that the pic you posted is the same basket hilt that I referred to in the link above. I am slow. Was the seller on Ebay asking $27,000? That was probably his reserve price. No wonder that no one made the bid! I wonder if is was appraised at that price.
-Carl
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Thu 01 Sep, 2005 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| E.B. Erickson wrote: | Or/also...with sword in hand, the rein oval enables both hands to be holding the reins for control of the horse, and you let go of the reins in the sword hand as you contact the opposition.
--ElJay |
Wait, the ring is the large oval one on the basket that allows passage in to your hand, and NOT the one just above that oval (which passes through to the blade)?
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Allen Johnson
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| Posted: Thu 01 Sep, 2005 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Correct. The big one going into the grip.
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Fri 02 Sep, 2005 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| Carl Massaro wrote: | Great info, guys.
Would anyone here happen to know if $5,000 US is an approprate amount to pay for a, late 17th or early 18th century John Simpson Basket hilt in good condition? It still had some ray skin on the handle that looked quite old. The only reference I have is that the antique 18th century basket hilts I have seen online were going for the 4-5k range.
I am going to see that guy this weekend and I want to look at the sword again if he still has it. If it has the "I S" over "G" mark on the basket, then that should indicate that it was made by John Simpson. The "I" is the letter used in Latin for "J", so "I S" must mean "John Simpson", and the "G" presumably stands for "Glasgow". John Simpson's son was also a famous basket hilt maker, is mark was "I S Y" over "G" The "Y" presumably stans for "Younger".
I really don't have the money for this at all, and I am even in debt, but something about this sword has grabbed me lately. I lie awake at night thinking about it. I remember it being light, agile and incredibly well balanced.
Thomas,
I just realized that the pic you posted is the same basket hilt that I referred to in the link above. I am slow. Was the seller on Ebay asking $27,000? That was probably his reserve price. No wonder that no one made the bid! I wonder if is was appraised at that price.-Carl |
Hi Carl
If the basket hilt is a genuine signed John Simpson of Glasgow than $5,000.00 is a very good price !
Be aware that there are lots of fakes out there ..... adding a famous signature mark has been done to many an old hilt, as well as to modern made ones !
Be sure you do your homework ..... look for all the tell-tale signs that it is at least of the period ( lap welds, patina, pitting, etc.) and that it has all the little stylings that ISG incorporated into his work !
Any chance you could post a few photos ?
* Also too, Carl ... going deeper into dept for a sword is not always the wisest of moves !
If the sword is genuine you could easily profit with it at that price, but it's still a risk, and there are no guarentees !
Always remember that there will be other swords down the road .... perhaps at a time when your in a better situation financially !
( Course if I had a chance on a famous signed piece, at a good price, I'd probably be whistling a different tune ;-)
If I remember correctly the starting price on that piece was around 25K .... at least at one point !
( I swear he'd had it listed once in the 17k range but I may be misremembering ?)
I recall too that he got very upset with bidders trying to talk him down in price and he ended up pulling the listing in a bit of a huff , and spouting a few nasty comments ! Least that is how I remember it !
Good luck, and let us know how you fair ! Mac
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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This is a standard topic