[Patrick Kelly]

Bob,

No one is doubting that your black belt was hard earned and well deserved. My point was and is this: That belt doesn't mean anything (and I have a couple of things like that myself) in that it doesn't define who you are as a person or who you are as a martial artist. I'm sure you're aware that the colored belt system is purely a western invention that plays upon our need for physical gratification, the orientals didn't invent it, nor did they use it until they began dealing with western students on a regular basis. One of my instructors was an original student of Master Seiyu Oyata, who was responsible for bringing our style to the United States. Consequently my training wasn't far from the source. In the oriental mind the black belt does not signify a master or expert. What it does signify is that you're now a senior student who has mastered the basics of the art and is now ready to learn the "good stuff". I'm not trying to devalue your achievements in any way. What I am trying to do is point out that your black belt isn't an end unto itself, but simply another step in your journey. I'm sure there are other aspects of your training, both physical and psychological, that have carried over into your everyday life that are worth more than simply knowing how to kick the dog snot out of someone.

I could say that I held a golden jock strap in squating chicken gumbo ryu, but does that define me as a human being or a martial artist? (just a bit of humor there, so no offense meant.)

Anyway, back on topic..................

If you are trying to find out how an ancient weapon functioned the best thing you can do is to divorce yourself from your past experiences. For example: a person has studied kenjitsu for his entire life. He then picks up a european longsword and extrapolates a method of use based upon his previous experience. This should work because it's still a sword right? Wrong. While there are some striking similarities because of things like biomechanics there are also some striking differences due to weapon design, method of use, environment, etc. If a person approaches analysis from a point of preconception he/she will be led down the wrong road every time. That's why it's so important to start with a blank slate. This is why the study of period manuscripts, artwork, forensic analysis of remains, and etc. are so important. This is the closest we can come to "the source".

I'm not saying that your impressions of this axe are wrong. I'm just trying to put things in perspective for you. It seems to be a good hooking weapon to me too, and I see no reason why it couldn't have been used that way, or as a staff weapon either. Unfortunately we don't have any period documentation on this particular weapon so your guess is as good as any other.

[Bob Burns]

I received my black belt in October of 2004. I hate to toot my own horn here, but in answer to your question, I am quite deadly, was highly trained and instincts honed, everything was fine tuned by Keith Hackney. I am not crippled up, all pics are relatively recent, just cannot go on doing what I was doing anymore.
I had excellent fighting abilities, though not as fast with feet as were the guys in their 20s, so I used to do a lot of counter fighting. What I was good at was taking the opponent out of his game, turn the momentum around and drive him into walls, the floor, etc. LOL. Locked horns with some pretty good fighters too!
So in answer, yes I am very confident in my ability to defend myself or someone else. What I enjoyed was sport fighting, bang heads, knock each other around and then we tell each other what a great fight it was! I was never one to be violent, when a situation results in violence that often means the martial artist failed somewhere to subdue the situation before it got out of hand.
Training under Keith Hackney I learned ground fighting skills, how to use the headlight on a car, how to use a telephone pole, how to use a brick wall, the sidewalk, on and on. Keith was also a Navy SEAL, went into the SEALS straight out of high school and fought in 4 UFC fights (Ultimate Fighting Championships) best known for his defeat over 6' 8" 616 lb Emanuel Yarborough # 2 ranked Sumo in UFC 3. You can see the fight if you purchase Best of the UFC Volume 1, can be found at Best Buy.

Anyway, enough about myself, I sound like my own fan club and I do not want to present myself to the fine people in this website as being some egomaniac. I was very good and I have had the honor to have the heck beat out of me by "Dimitrius" (former kickboxing champion of Lithuania) at Hackneys Combat. I will attach a photo of him, incidently he is a humble man and now has an interest in swords. I stopped by Hackneys Combat to show the guys my very fine wares from Arms and Armor.

I am here to learn from all of you, who have been studying and collecting swords and weaponry for quite some time, and I am always open to being corrected when I am wrong. Besides, no black belt no matter how good he is, is going to try to take on someone skilled with a medieval sword! LOL! Seriously, I am here to learn and most if not all of you, know a heck of a lot more than I do about this stuff. In truth, I love these Medieval European Swords, weaponry, and armor, more than I did karate. This too is a martial art, and it is also our heritage. I come to this hobby we share from another aspect other than martial arts, I am also a genealogy and history buff.
I am fascinated with these weapons, this was a time when you got face to face with your enemy, up close and personal, not taking shots from a gun at a distance. I am also extremely grateful for Arms & Armor and Albion Swords, Vince Evans, Peter Johnson, Christian Fletcher, Christian Tobler and especially I am grateful to David Peck and Craig Johnson both of Arms & Armor. David Peck is the man who got me hooked! He is the Arms & Armor mgr at the Bristol Renaissance Faire here on the border of IL and WI. It all started with the purchase of the 12 Century Saxon Spear in 2003, then the purchase of the Saxon Parrying Dagger also through David Peck in 2004, the dagger drove the obsession home! I felt a warmth soul deep when I bought that dagger.


I know many of you are crazy about Albion, I take nothing away from them, have yet to see an Albion sword in person, but I am very happy with Arms & Armor and the fine way I have been treated by them repeatedly. Best customer service I ever experienced anywhere, ever in my life!
Besides, my wife has a lot of admiration for Arms & Armor too, and being that she tolerates my desire to collect swords and weaponry, in our financial situation to be spending $900.00 on a sword everytime I want a new sword instead of say $700.00. I will wind up with a sword hilt sticking out of the seat of my pants. If you know what I mean?
Though they may be "production" swords, but my Arms & Armor swords are sacred to me, and considering the price which I think is very fair, makes them all the more beautiful and "possible" (wife has a say in the money affairs ya know LOL) for me to acquire.

Whether someone's most fine quality sword acquisition is an Albion, Vince Evans, Peter Johnson or Arms & Armor, or other fine sword, I am always very happy for the person and I say that in truth! Remember, Arms & Armor also makes custom swords!

Next acquisition will be in 2006 and the first sword will be the Edward III from Arms & Armor, probably with some custom engraving. Yep, I have a couple of Albions on my mind, Caithness and Sovereign just to name a couple.


Once again I blabbered on! LOL!

Happy Collecting to ALL of You!,

Bob

[Mitch Lam]

[Chad Arnow]

[Michael G. Myers]

Hi, Bob.

In wrapping up the week, I'm a bit pushed these last two days and have only read posts. Bob, I realize that I do owe you a response to a post which I directed specifically to you. I look forward to reading more of your posts concerning the Dane axe and, in their proper place, the other, broader interests we share.

My thanks for your patience, Bob.


Michael

[Bob Burns]

There will be no further reference to my belt, it got way out of hand and far beyond anything I wanted it to go to.
Coming off as considering myself a notch up from others, is the LAST thing I want anyone to get the impression of, I am here to learn. I was also only trying to amplify that I like our common interest even more and that while I am only a novice in the area of our common interest that I did have some knowledge in an area that gave me "some" insight.
So, my apologies to everyone!

I have also repeatedly stated I am only a novice and have a lot to learn that for me to try to preach about swords would be nothing but ignorant arrogance on my part.

Actually I am even considering changing the picture associated with my name, it does look kind of egotistical.

So if I have offended anyone, I do apologize and I hope that you will continue to guide me in the area of learning what you have learned.

Still waiting for my book Sword in the Age of Chivalry


PEACE,

Bob

[Joe Maccarrone]

I've got a fair bit of experience in Aikido, and I'll testify that there is nothing "soft" about it, in a traditional school... You're hitting the mat many, many times during a workout, and this is actually harder on the body than any of the "hard" arts I have more experience in.

That's one of the best things about Aikido, in my opinion -- toughening the body in general, if not the knuckles.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Joe;

Thanks for the correction that Aikido is not soft on the body at least as far as wear and tear on a previously damaged body: Might not be an ideal alternate martial art for someone who has to stop practising Karate like BOb because of injuries.

Maybe " soft " in the sense of being more circular and using strikes a lot less than the more linear types of martial arts.

In any case maybe more discussion about the various eastern martial arts should be part of a new topic.
( Not playing moderator here. )

[Gavin Kisebach]

Right, so about that Danish long axe.... I worked with a couple of long axe "gurus" at practice on Thursday night. It was a fascinating evening, and I can't begin to relay all of the knowledge they heaped on me, but here's what I recall:

Range and positioning are of utmost priority. I had been right about this to an extent, but they really pounded this into my head (really). Shieldmen are at a disadvantage if you dictate the range, and you must, because if you allow a SwordNBoard inside, its usually all over. Really distance is the only defense is space there's no way you're gonna out twitch a sword. Spend most of your thought on range and position, keep moving and chopping while you look for an opening.

A barrage of overhand chops is more effective than big arcing loops. The figure eight thing may look cool, but so does flipping a ballisong (butterfly) knife, and they both get the same results in a fight.

Hooking is a mixed bag. It's really a group tool. even a falling opponent can lash out, and you have no defense if you're axe is tied up.

Many people will block your haft and still get brained - this is good. Many people lack the upper body strength to stop a 240lb maniac's crushing overhand greataxe blows with just a heater shield, and center boss shields are even more tiring to use. Some people, however, are immensely strong and if you get hooked on their shield, they will lift you off your feet and stab you in the ribs

Spend most of your thought on range and position, keep moving and chopping while you look for an opening.

There is no historical evidence that anyone ever died from an axebutt to the face, but you can't prove a negative, and it can be a marvelous way to get untangle and reestablish your distance at the same time.

This should be in the Ten Commandments of Fighting, but it always bears repeating: power from the hips. If your right hand is forward, your right leg should be too so you can generate POWER from your HIPS. I know this and I forget it every time I learn a new weapon. This is not a smallsword and it will wear you out if you try to muscle it.

Spend most of your thought on range and position, keep moving and chopping while you look for an opening.

I hope that helps, and I hope I got it right. This can be a fluid, graceful, deceptive instrument. My thanks to Olcan and Idanthricis (spelling?), for all the wisdom and bruises.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Gavin;

Thanks for the great and to the point post, any chance of getting more input on the use of the Danish axe for those guys?

Or get them to join and post here.

If controlling the range is this essential what does this tell us about the use of the great axe in individual combat compared to battle use in either loose formation or a compact shield wall where controlling distance would be more difficult ???

In a shield wall you would maybe depend more on the others next to you with shields to take care of defence and would control distance by alternating between being behind the shield wall and rushing to the front of the shield wall or a bit beyond to strike.

Just speculation on my part to keep the discussion going.

[Patrick Kelly]

Thanks for the great information Gavin.

[Gavin Kisebach]

Patrick did the vikings fight in the shield wall with spears or langsaxes/axe, or both. I know I'm being lazy here, but in the interest of time I'll just ask. I'm thinking of sword and roundshield, but given the popularity, availability and gereral veneration given the spear, I'd assume it was present in the wall. If so did they sling their shield, or just stand behind shieldmen? Either way that would change the entire exercise, if range indeed is a key factor. This would mean that axes wouldn't be dictating range at all in shieldwall combat, spears would. That would tend to support the idea of axes in a specialized role.

Oh yes, one more thing I learned, a good two hand shove to the shield of someone who isn't expecting it can have amusing results, and plays into that range advantage rather nicely.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Sort of just joking but wouldn't a shield wall be a lot like American Football with spears and shields, swords and axe and
NO RULES and at least a few Berserkers being a part of your shield wall.

Reinactors may have some basis to give us an opinion on this but the fact that they must use restraint makes it difficult to test out the more savage possibilities.

We shouldn't underestimate the role of skill and courage, but brute force + " Crazy " might also play a major part in deciding the outcome of a fight: A few 300 pound guys in your line armed with axes ............

Oh, did the Vikings use a triangular formation at times to attack a shield wall with maybe the biggest guys at the apex of the triangle ? Didn't the Celts use these formations against the Romans with varying degrees of success ?

[Bob Burns]

Yep, immense power comes from the hips, as well as proper stance, though in the chaos of battle, it is a nightmare in there. Which is why I liked Hackney's so much. Reality combat!
Those beautiful poetic movements do not have any place in real battle, this I agree with 200% and it is also what I was taught!

Happy Collecting,

Bob

[Patrick Kelly]

[Michael G. Myers]

[Michael G. Myers]

[Michael G. Myers]

[Gavin Kisebach]

Well gee aren't we forgetting that infamous *snicker* "viking halberd" that MRL was so kind as to inven...uh...discover and recreate? *guffaw*

[Geoffrey H]

I recently saw a doco ("fact or fiction") that each week takes well known historical figures and looks at the truth or otherwise of the stories surrounding them. One week to topic was Harold Godwinson, the Saxon opponent of William the Conqueror (incidentally this is the time depicted in the Bayeux tapestrey). In the doco there was a description of how foot battles were fought, in this case Harold's men fighting off one of the last Viking raids (he is credited as thrashing them and getting an agremment for them to never come back, which apparently they did not after this time).

The battle is described as two opposing shield walls of spearmen. Harold's Harscarls, wielding some form of long handled axes, stood behind the line and attemped to strike over the heads of thier men at weak points in the opposing line. Presumably some part of the lines would come close together and then suddenly this big guy with a gigantic axe is standing behind your opponent who you are fighting and he swings his axe down on top of your head. If the predominat makeup of the soldiers at the time were shield and spearmen, you can see how having a few big guys with big axes behind your lines might work.

In this situation the long handled axe is used to break the deadlock that exists between two shield walls. The number of men with these long axes is relativeley small, but thier job is an important one.


EDIT: The point I am making is that in this case the long axe was not a weapon for individual or skimish combat, but a weapon specially designed to strike down over the shieldwall. It would be even more usefull if the men in the shieldwalls had only a shield and a hand weapon each, in this case the walls are very close together, having some guys with long axes striking over the wall while the oponents are already fighting one man each sounds like a good was to kill lots of the opposition, allthough you can imagine that in many conflicts both sides would be using this tactic.

If you want to re-enact the use of long axes, you might try having some shield wall fighting with one or two guys behind each wall using long axes.