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Hisham Gaballa
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 Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005 3:47 am Post subject: Re: Viking helm photo. |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | Here's a photo of my Medieval Reproductions spectacle helm.
This gives a better idea of the finish and proportion of the helm, as opposed to the photos in the recent review that had to be muted due to reflection. |
Very nice! The helmet, sword and shield look great. 
BTW I've read somewhere that the Gjermundbu helmet that your helmet is based on, originally had a mail aventail attached to the lower edge. Do you have any plans to add one?
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005 4:10 am Post subject: Re: Viking helm photo. |
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| Hisham Gaballa wrote: | | BTW I've read somewhere that the Gjermundbu helmet that your helmet is based on, originally had a mail aventail attached to the lower edge. Do you have any plans to add one? |
It appears there was some kind of mail attachment on the original helm but what form it took is anyone's guess. Adding a butted mail aventail was an option but I'd like to stay away from the butted stuff. I'm considering adding an aventail of riveted mail myself.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Johan S. Moen
Location: Kristiansand, Norway Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005 5:08 am Post subject: |
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Any particular reason for why the helm does not have the extra rounded ridge bands like the Gjermundbu? Personal taste or smiths choice or something else?
Also, what kind of trim is that on your tunic sleeves?
And I must add: nice helm. I especially like the upper band where it connects above the spectacles! Nice detail.
Johan Schubert Moen
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C.L. Miller
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Johan S. Moen wrote: | | Any particular reason for why the helm does not have the extra rounded ridge bands like the Gjermundbu? Personal taste or smiths choice or something else? |
From Patrick's review of this helm posted elsewhere on this site:
"This helm is not a direct copy of the Gjermundbu find but is rather inspired by that artifact. While the Medieval Reproductions example features the same Spangenhelm style of construction its method of attachment differs from the original. Instead of using four reinforcing bars with two rivets each to connect the skull-plates, this helm utilizes four connecting bands that feature double rows of rivets. A theory concerning the original helm states that it was possibly made for ceremonial purposes due to the apparent fragility of its construction. This is possible; however, modern sensibilities typically assume that the arms of antiquity were far more overbuilt than they actually were. When this is taken into account this supposition remains only an interesting theory. Regardless of the design intent of the original the method of construction chosen by Mr. Fuller does result in a much stronger design."
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Johan S. Moen
Location: Kristiansand, Norway Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| C.L. Miller wrote: | | Johan S. Moen wrote: | | Any particular reason for why the helm does not have the extra rounded ridge bands like the Gjermundbu? Personal taste or smiths choice or something else? |
From Patrick's review of this helm posted elsewhere on this site:
"This helm is not a direct copy of the Gjermundbu find but is rather inspired by that artifact. While the Medieval Reproductions example features the same Spangenhelm style of construction its method of attachment differs from the original. Instead of using four reinforcing bars with two rivets each to connect the skull-plates, this helm utilizes four connecting bands that feature double rows of rivets. A theory concerning the original helm states that it was possibly made for ceremonial purposes due to the apparent fragility of its construction. This is possible; however, modern sensibilities typically assume that the arms of antiquity were far more overbuilt than they actually were. When this is taken into account this supposition remains only an interesting theory. Regardless of the design intent of the original the method of construction chosen by Mr. Fuller does result in a much stronger design." |
So? I have seen lots of Gjermundbu inspired helmets that still have the extra rounded bars on.  It does not necesseraliy have do to with strength.
Johan Schubert Moen
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C.L. Miller
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude, just helpful. I'm sure Patrick will answer your question shortly.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| C.L. Miller wrote: | | Sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude, just helpful. I'm sure Patrick will answer your question shortly. |
No worries C.L., there was a bit of rudeness there but it wasn't on your part.
You actually answered the question for me. The original helm itself is in such fragmentary condition that an exact duplication isn't possible. Therefore rather than adhere to complete historical accuracy, which is impossible and theoretical in this case, Peter decided to use this stronger design. It would be possible to use a welded bowl and attach the rounded bands to it, however, this method makes for a stronger helm that stays within traditional construction methods. I could have gone either way myself as it wasn't a sticking point for me, so I didn't question his choice too heavily. As I said quite clearly in my initial post (as well as the review) this helm is based on, or inspired by, the Gjermunbu find. It is not a direct copy and shouldn't be viewed as such.
Johan,
Here's a close-up of the trim.
http://www.calontirtrim.com/queries/showtrim.asp?trimid=903
It's attractive trim which I like but I'll probably replace it when I find something of more period correct construction.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Johan S. Moen
Location: Kristiansand, Norway Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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My apologies to you Mr. Miller, I was not intending on coming off as rude.
It is just that I have seen quite a few helmets of similar construction(replicas), that still have the extra bars attached for decoration, and so was wondering why this one did not have them. Also, I was never under the impression that this was but a piece inspired by the Gjermundbu. Anyhow, thanks for answering Patrick!
Just wondered about the trim because I was wondering what kind it was. If it had been tablet woven, I'd imagine it would have cost you quite a lot, because of the complex pattern. Just simple geometric patterned bands cost quite a lot...
Johan Schubert Moen
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Johna wrote: | Just wondered about the trim because I was wondering what kind it was. If it had been tablet woven, I'd imagine it would have cost you quite a lot, because of the complex pattern. Just simple geometric patterned bands cost quite a lot...
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Unfortunately I've found out exactly how expensive tablet weaving is. I wanted to find some period appropriate trim but I may just have to make do. I certainly don't want to try it!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Chuck Russell
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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patrick, i think theres a place online (they were at hastings) called white wolf and phoenix? they sell wool trim. they also sell wool yarn/stuff to make your own trim. its a very nice. 30 bucks for enough to do hem, cuffs and neck.
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Lance Higgins
Location: Fort Worth, Texas Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Perfect compliment to that Jarl.
I bet you neighbors call you SIR when they speak with you after seeing you in your backyard with all those nice goodies.
Esse Quam Videri
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Sam Barris
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Very nice! It stands well on its own, but I think some riveted mail would compliment it beautifully. Along similar lines, any inclination to paint it like your Norman one?
Pax,
Sam Barris
"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Sam Barris wrote: | | Very nice! It stands well on its own, but I think some riveted mail would compliment it beautifully. Along similar lines, any inclination to paint it like your Norman one? |
No. I haven't found any evidence to suggest this during the viking age. Besides, one painted helmet is nice but I don't want to overdo it. I like this one shiny.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Greg Griggs
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Lance Higgins wrote: | | I bet you neighbors call you SIR when they speak with you after seeing you in your backyard with all those nice goodies. |
Actually, I know his neighbors quite well and "sir" is not usually the words they use to describe Patrick, LOL. I do think we should do a small re-enactment thing in Patrick's front yard someday, just to see the looks on the neighbor's faces. 'Twould be priceless. hahahahahahaha.
The thing I like about this helm is how solid it feels without being heavy or bulky. I work with metals every day in my "job", and so have a pretty good feel for how they react. It's a good bet that this helm, in actual usage, would do a good job of deflecting any glancing blow without taking too much damage. Oh, and face-to-helm; this is one beautiful piece of work. Trooper Love has wayyyy too many super nice accounterments.:}
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.
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Chuck Russell
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 9:00 am Post subject: |
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looks good patrick. now can you wear it over your mail coif? if so how does it look pics please ehhehehe. great looking helmet. how is the spike on top done? is it a ground off piece or a screw on? just wondering.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Chuck Russell wrote: | | looks good patrick. now can you wear it over your mail coif? if so how does it look pics please ehhehehe. great looking helmet. how is the spike on top done? is it a ground off piece or a screw on? just wondering. |
A mail coif under this helm? Now Chuck, you know that isn't period. 
(it would look cool though)
Seriously, there's no room between my big head and the helm for a coif. I never intended to wear it that way so I sent Peter the appropriate measurement. This is why I'm seriously considering adding an aventail in the future.
I can't tell if the spike is screwed into the plate, but from the in-progress photos Peter sent me I doubt it. It does go through the crown of the helm and is welded on the inside.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Greg wrote: | | I do think we should do a small re-enactment thing in Patrick's front yard someday, just to see the looks on the neighbor's faces. |
Unfortunately I don't think they'd be suprised!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2005 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick I guess it depends on what type of re-enactment group: You might still surprise your neighbours if there was a late period Macedonean group with war elephants or a German SS re-enacment group with their own Tiger I tank ( No political Nazi overtones intended here, just the most " surprising example I can think of.   )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Chuck Russell
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| Posted: Sat 29 Oct, 2005 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| Chuck wrote: | OH WE do do we check into getting an HE or Forth armoury aventail. you could attach it all the way around and take out the links needed at the eyes. i think it would be awsome and do the helm a greater justice. man, patrick you need to live closer to the DC area so we can hang out and reenact! hehehe
ps, did you get my note about the whitewolf and phoenix trim? all wool stuff looked good inperson and you can ask for colors you want.
on a side note, what all books are you using for your research? i'm always wanting to expand my library on the subject. |
Yes we do. A coif under the helm isn't period. As for an aventail attached to the helm that's a different story. I've never cared for that particulat set up. Looks good but it's a pain to wear, at least I don't like it. If I add anything it will be a more simple neck drape such as the original Gjermundbu helm is theorized to have had. If I do that I'll have to use round riveted rings as opposed to the flat riveted kind I've been using on my hauberk. All extant mail finds believed to be from the viking age have round riveted rings. Lately I've been using alternating riveted and solid rings for the hauberk. That really speeds things up!
Yes I did get it, thanks! I found them before and if I go with something it will probably be them due to the cost.
Books you say? Go ahead and check out my reading list here.
http://www.myArmoury.com/books/list.php?mode=user&u=8
I think I have everything relavent to the issue listed there.
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This is a standard topic