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Jeff Demetrick




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct, 2005 7:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting thread. Here is my contribution. The rest are in storage Sad

Hope this helps.
Jeff



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2.0 lbs

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2.3 lbs
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct, 2005 7:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeff Demetrick wrote:
Interesting thread. Here is my contribution. The rest are in storage Sad
Hope this helps. Jeff


Hi Jeff

Ah, so you were the one that snagged those two from Eoin !
Eoin Cummings Scottish Swords


Thanks for the info, and Congrats, my man !

Mac

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Jeff Demetrick




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct, 2005 7:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas McDonald wrote:
Jeff Demetrick wrote:
Interesting thread. Here is my contribution. The rest are in storage Sad
Hope this helps. Jeff


Hi Jeff

Ah, so you were the one that snagged those two from Eoin !
Eoin Cummings Scottish Swords


Thanks for the info, and Congrats, my man !

Mac


Thanks Mac,

I saw your photo spread when they were safely on their way to me. Eoin was a great fellow to deal with, but it will be a little while before I feel brave enough to haggle with a Scot again Happy . I have discussed one of them here ; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?...baskethilt

All the Best
Jeff
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct, 2005 5:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Jeff .... your a Braveheart-ed soul haggling with them pure breeds ;-)
I'll have to be a nosey Nancy and e-mail you about what the ballpark was :-)

Here are a few more put to the scale ..... Mac

C.N. McIntyre North "Leabhar Comunn nam Fior Ghael", Vol. II (1881)
The Book of the Club of True Highlanders

Plate 43
sword weighs - 2 lbs. 7 1/4 oz. , the blade & tang, 1 lb. 2 1/4 oz.; the hilt, handle, and pommel, 1 lb. 4 oz.

Plate 44
sword weighs - 2 lbs.

Plate 45
weight of sword is - 2 lbs. 3/4 oz.

Plate 46 C.
Ribbon hilt (far right) : sword weighs - 2 lbs. 8 oz.

(ee) The weights were taken by a spring balance, with the exception of the specimen Plate 43 -- this was taken to pieces and each part carefully weighed; the one on Plate 45 was also carefully weighed.



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David White




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct, 2005 5:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mac/Jeff, Thanks for posting pictures of your wonderful b-h's.
I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing I had them in the house!

dave

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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Sun 09 Oct, 2005 7:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just a FYI moment ....

Methinks baskethilt G8b (page 150 in Mazansky) is the same one that McIntyre North sketched, in Plate 44 of True Highlanders, back in 1881. (even the blade looks right) . Mac

- The second illustration (Plate 44) shows a claymore in the possession of F. Mortimer, Esq., the hilt is a beautiful specimen of workmanship; the blade is 31" inches from hilt to point, the sword weighs 2 lbs. (ee); the maker's name is entirely obliterated; it was bought at the sale of the collection belonging to Mr. Drummond.
- Leabhar Comunn Nam Fior Ghael , Vol. II, {"The Book of the Club of True Highlanders"} by C.N. McIntyre North , 1881



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PostPosted: Mon 31 Oct, 2005 3:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Tue 01 Nov, 2005 11:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, this is a truly enlightening thread.

Thanks to everyone who posted info on the weights of specific historical pieces.

I don't own any basket-hilts--either originals or replicas--yet. But, I have handled quite a few originals, an a couple of replicas. ALL the originals I handled were light and well-balanced--I would guess that at least two of them were around 2lbs flat. The replicas I have handled have been disappointing--an old Windlass "Irish Hilt" from Museum Reps, and Cold Steel's basket-hilted broadsword--both were friggin' clubs.

We should perhaps consider George Silver's description of the "short sharp LIGHT sword"...

"Why meddle with us--you are not strong enough to break us--you know that you have won the battle and slaughtered our army--be content with your honor, and leave us alone, for by God's good will only have we escaped from this business" --unknown Spanish captain to the Chevalier Bayard, at the Battle of Ravenna, 1512
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Patrick Kelly




PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov, 2005 11:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As this information is relevant to this thread I've left it here. As Mac's Scotland trip is an independent matter I've separated it into another thread in the Off Topic forum so as not to derail this one.
Thomas McDonald wrote:
I've recently returned from a most amazing trip to Scotland & Ireland, where I joined Vince & Grace Evans on one of their incredible research & study missions ! I could go on, and on, for days about the breath-taking pieces I got to see, handle, photograph, and marvel at (which I will try to recount as we go along here at mA), but I'll just throw out a few more baskethilt weights for now as that is the subject at hand !
* Unfortunately I'll not be able to include my photos of these particular ones as they were in the private reserve at Glasgow and permission to show them publicly has not been granted.)
.......................................................................................................................................................................................
Baskethilt broadsword by Thomas Gemmill (Kings Armourer in Glasgow, c. 1718-1737) - 3 lbs. 2 oz.

Baskethilt backsword by James Grant ( Stirling, admitted Freeman, Burgess/Hammerman, 1759) - 2 lbs. 7-1/4 oz.
(* Pictured in Mazansky's book, Fig. G8a(JG), page 150.)

Baskethilt broadsword signed IN over G (possibly John Napier of Glasgow, ?, admitted Burgess 1654) - 3 lbs. 2 oz.

Baskethilt broadsword (unsigned, possibly by the same hand as the ING signed hilt ?) Wide blade, muti-fullered, and pattern welded. - 3 lbs. 4-3/4 oz. (*we came across at least 3 different baskethilts in our travels that had definate pattern welded blades on them!)

Ribbon hilt broadsword - 2 lbs. 1oz.

Baskethilt broadsword, c. 1720, by John Simpson 2 (Glasgow, admitted Freeman in 1711) - 3 lbs. 3/4 oz.
Blade inscribed ‘IOHANNIS HOPPE ME FECIT SOLINGEN’ .
* Pictured Here on the Glasgow/Kelvingrove Museum website.

Baskethilt broadsword (ivory grip) - 2 lbs. 10-3/4 oz.

Silver encrusted baskethilt broadsword (Twysden style) - 2 lbs. 9-3/4 oz.

Silver encusted baskethilt broadsword (blade signed CLEMENS WILLEMS) - 2 lbs. 6-1/2 oz.

Ribbon hilt broadsword - 3 lbs. 4 oz.
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Hisham Gaballa




PostPosted: Sat 05 Nov, 2005 12:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm straying off topic here, but how much did historic claymores (the two-handed type, not the basket hilted type) weigh? Happy
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David Wilson




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PostPosted: Sat 05 Nov, 2005 1:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hisham Gaballa wrote:
I'm straying off topic here, but how much did historic claymores (the two-handed type, not the basket hilted type) weigh? Happy


I don't have the documentation available, but, IIRC, they weighed in the 4 to 5 or 5.5 lbs area, with some a bit heavier, a few a bit lighter.

David K. Wilson, Jr.
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Nov, 2005 3:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We weighed one two-hand claymore in the Glasgow reserve and it came in at 4 lbs. 15 oz., and another at the Burrell that was 4lbs. 9 oz. (missing its 2 quatrefoil terminal ends). Also, a clamshell two-hander that weighed in at 4 lbs. 4-3/4 oz., and a big 'ol Lowland type that tipped the scales at 6 lbs. 8-1/2 oz.
..............................................................................................................................................................................

There is a detailed look at this claymore, by Ian Kirkwood, linked from The Cateran Society's site !
He states that the claymore weighs 4 lbs. 4 oz. (missing its handle & one side of its pommel)
It's 3 seperate pages in PDF format.
'Oliphant of Gask Scottish Two Hander' - Page # 1
Page # 2
Page # 3

Plate 41
The Claidheamh-mor, "great sword", or two-handed sword, was common at one time, but when it was introduced into the Highlands is unknown. The one shown on plate 41(believed to have been used by Robert Bruce) is known to have belonged to the founder of the family of the McLeans of Coll. The handle is a fine specimen of carved work, the blade is of very good temper, and the sword is a very fine specimen of the armourer's art. The scabbard is not of the same age (plate 41, fig. A). The sword weighs 4 lbs. 8 oz., and the scabbard 1 lb. 1/4 oz.

Another sword, apparently by the same maker (also in the possession of Col. McLean of Coll), has not the same amount of finish bestowed upon it; the quatre-foils of the guard are left rough from the anvil, and the handle is plain; the scabbard is, however, older than the one previously described; both of the scabbards are of leather.
Figs. BB show the sword used by Lundin of that ilk at Bannockburn; the blade is about 49" inches long, and the weight is about 6lbs. 8oz.
Fig. C shows a two-handed sword at Cluny Castle, which formerly belonged to Fraser of Struie; there is a very good specimen at Ardvorlich, and one in the possession of Sir Noel Paton.

-- Leabhar Comunn Nam Fior Ghael , Vol. II, "The Book of the Club of True Highlanders", by C.N. McIntyre North , 1881.



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Mark Eskra




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Jun, 2006 2:40 pm    Post subject: balancebalancebalance         Reply with quote

From my point of view, anything over 3.25 pounds is a club. Balance is critical for these though, because you can't use your spare hand for leverage...
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Jun, 2006 3:24 am    Post subject: Re: balancebalancebalance         Reply with quote

Mark Eskra wrote:
From my point of view, anything over 3.25 pounds is a club. Balance is critical for these though, because you can't use your spare hand for leverage...


Hi Mark

While proper balence makes these swords (two handers) all the more efficient & effective I just don't agree with the statement that "anything over 3.25 pounds is a club".

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you meant ? Can you elaborate further !

Thanks, Mac

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Mark Eskra




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Jun, 2006 6:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I';v done a bit with a basket hilt, and know once the adrenaline rush is gone, its hard to finess a restricted grip weapon. With straight grip swords, your secnd hand can add to control, so the weight is not as critical a factor.
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Mark Eskra




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Jun, 2006 6:15 am    Post subject: further to last         Reply with quote

I was referring the 3.25 lbs to the basket hilters, not the straight grips
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Jun, 2006 6:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Mark

For finess I'd agree a lighter sword would be the weapon of choice, but for sheer power in the cut I'll take a stout 3+ pounder anyday ! It probably depends alot on a swordsman's indivdual strength, too, as to how effective a heavier piece fairs !

Thanks, Mac

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