Watching a program on BBC TV as part of a series on the working life of the Royal Palaces set me to thinking about where they wore the dagger as part of a matched set of rapier and dagger. A creation of the arrival of Queen Anne, wife to James VI and I was being done, with some very nice clothing......All the 16th Century pictures I've seen show the dagger hilt on the same hip as the rapier hilt. This does make sense to me, if attacked draw the dagger to fend off the initail threat and swap hands whilst unhooking and drawing the rapier.
I've not seen any 17th Century pictures with a dagger present, which does suggest that th0e dagger has dropped out of use....
Any thoughts?
A parrying dagger is generally worn on the right hip, hilt forward, so that it can be drawn with the left hand. There are times when it was worn at the back, too, with the hilt on the left-rear of the wearer.
Please show me images of the dagger on the same hip as the rapier.
Let me suggest you browse our Photo Albums of historical portrrais for more insight. I really need to upload more stuff to this section. So many things to do. :)
[ Linked Image ] [ Linked Image ]
Click photos for larger versions
Please show me images of the dagger on the same hip as the rapier.
Let me suggest you browse our Photo Albums of historical portrrais for more insight. I really need to upload more stuff to this section. So many things to do. :)
[ Linked Image ] [ Linked Image ]
Click photos for larger versions
| David Evans wrote: |
| if attacked draw the dagger to fend off the initail threat and swap hands whilst unhooking and drawing the rapier. |
I've always felt that this was quite plausible myself, although I know of no hard evidence to support or deny it. But with the dagger on the right hip, should the situation be crowded, you could easily draw the dagger with the dominant hand in the underhand "ice pick" grip.
In Salvator Fabris's fencing treatise there is a brief section on defending yourself if you are unarmed against a dagger weilding assailant. The illustration of the assailant shows him holding a dagger that is the typical long quillon parrying dagger with a side ring. He is also shown using the underhand grip, and the text says it is the position he is in after drawing the dagger. Not actually proof of anything, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the dagger could have been the first weapon drawn in a fast self-defense situation.
Didn't realise till last night I'd f***d up and meant the opposite hip to the sword hilt.......I really must test my brain for sun damage. Honestly... I should have myself condemenned for brain failure......Doh!
My comments about the draw work slightly better, fast draw with the right from the right hip to fend off the attack, swap hands and unhook and draw the rapier. My rapier instructor is of the mind that the rapier hanger is unhooked from the belt rather than trying to draw 40" of sharp steel. Having tried it when I finally got a hanger and belt it does work.....makes it easier than the strange twists trying to draw whilst still attached!
I've got two pictures which I try and upload asap but I could suggest Derreke woodcust from Ireland, which show HUGE daggers all on the right hip at the rear. By huge I mean that if they were in scale they would be nearer shortswords than daggers!
My comments about the draw work slightly better, fast draw with the right from the right hip to fend off the attack, swap hands and unhook and draw the rapier. My rapier instructor is of the mind that the rapier hanger is unhooked from the belt rather than trying to draw 40" of sharp steel. Having tried it when I finally got a hanger and belt it does work.....makes it easier than the strange twists trying to draw whilst still attached!
I've got two pictures which I try and upload asap but I could suggest Derreke woodcust from Ireland, which show HUGE daggers all on the right hip at the rear. By huge I mean that if they were in scale they would be nearer shortswords than daggers!
Found one! Try this link, shows dagger peeking out over the right hip...
http://www.artandarchitecture.org.uk/images/gallery/587d3220.html
[ Linked Image ]
http://www.artandarchitecture.org.uk/images/gallery/587d3220.html
[ Linked Image ]
This shows sword and dagger rather than rapier and dagger, but FWIW, here are Engish soldiers, mid-late 16th c. This position seems to be very common.
Attachment: 106.79 KB
Attachment: 106.79 KBHere is a portrait of Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester by Steven van der Muelen, circa 1560.
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Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester
Attachment: 51.98 KBRobert Dudley, Earl of Leicester
| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
| A parrying dagger is generally worn on the right hip, hilt forward, so that it can be drawn with the left hand. There are times when it was worn at the back, too, with the hilt on the left-rear of the wearer.
Please show me images of the dagger on the same hip as the rapier. Let me suggest you browse our Photo Albums of historical portrrais for more insight. I really need to upload more stuff to this section. So many things to do. :) [ Linked Image ] [ Linked Image ] Click photos for larger versions |
Off topic, but we have that very image of Phillip II in our Early Modern History textbook.
| Sean Flynt wrote: |
| This shows sword and dagger rather than rapier and dagger, but FWIW, here are Engish soldiers, mid-late 16th c. This position seems to be very common. |
This pic is the one I was planning on using for the discussion, as it best shows how the dagger was worn in the late-16th Century (at least the most common method, I believe). All of the paintings and illustrations I can think of show this method, with the hilt of the dagger being very easily accessable to the right hand for a quick drawing motion for defense, while the left hand can fumble with detatching the rapier's hanger from the belt so you can toss the darned scabbard away from your immediate vicinity.
Sir John Smythe suggests (along with a lot of other odd ideas) that the pikeman's dagger be worn hanging down along the right thigh that he might draw it with ease in the Press, and gives a reference to some county militia doing just that, but I have yet to see any illustrations of same. His description makes me think of some of the Renfairie dagger-slinging "holsters" I've seen, unfortunately, so I refuse to devulge just where I read this! :D
Anyway, David, I do believe that you are dead on the money with the idea that the dagger was worn on the right hip, with the pommel to the front (or on the back, with the pommel to the right side). At least, that's how I wear mine!
Cheers!
Gordon
Gordon;
I would do the exact reverse but the principle is the same as I'm left handed. :p :lol:
I would do the exact reverse but the principle is the same as I'm left handed. :p :lol:
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
| Gordon;
I would do the exact reverse but the principle is the same as I'm left handed. :p :lol: |
More "sinister" suggestions from M. le Gauche... :D
Cheers!
Gordon
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