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Patrick Kelly
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 Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: | | Gotta ask this question, Patrick - how many man-hours do you have into this project? Compiling your materials, assembly of maille alterations, gathering your other kit components (helm, big Johnsson, etc.)? In terms of calendar time, I know we must be talking at least a couple of years. |
Good question Steve.
First, I have to point out to Aaron that I never said anything about it being finished in this latest update.  I'm not stupid enough to make that mistake again!
The skirt portion of the hauberk is indeed finished. (thank the good lord) Most reenactors/living historians that I see who are trying to recreate this era do so with mail garments that are "off the shelf". Most hauberks will consist of a mail tube with sleeves and a whole for the neck and not much more. IMHO, with this time period one of the key factors in creating a convincing look is how the mail fits, how it hangs on the body, and how it moves. You're not going to get that kind of look with off the rack mail. It will be too tight where it shouldn't bee, too loose where it shouldn't be, etc. Consequently you have two choices: go with a custom order from someone like Erik Schmid or Steve Sheldon or make it yourself. Due to cost I had to go with the later option.
With the "tube-o-mail" approach the designs deficiencies become very evident where the skirt area of the hauberk is concerned. The most obvious result of this approach is that the slits, whether they be on the front and back or the sides, will splay out widely when the hauberk is worn. This won't properly protect the wearers legs when he's moving or riding. Of course the biggest drawback for us is that it just looks plain silly.  I've seen this result in past projects and I wanted to get it right with this one so the majority of the work I did was on the skirt. Another factor with the "tube-o-mail" is that in order to get it to fit over everything it will have to be much larger than neccesary. This will result in it being far heavier than neccesary. The basic rule of thumb with this method is to add ten inches to your chest measurement. This approach adds a lot of extra and unneccesary weight. There is as much fitting involved in mail as there is in a fabric garment. Unfortunately you don't see this in many modern attempts at mail.
We can't consider the time of me acquiring the PJ as a start date since I really hadn't thought of building this kit at the time, although it was an eventual inspiration.
I originally ordered the hauberk as a sort of impulse buy. I wanted a mail shirt, for a display accessory if nothing more. This one was priced at under $300.00 at the time so I didn't think I could go wrong. That was where the whole thing began! I think that was in June of this year. When I received the shirt I was pretty happy with what I had for the initial investment. Nothing great but it would make a good experiment. I decided to removed the nasty gross offensive zinc plating with some muriatic acid. After that was finished I looked at the result and thought, "That doesn't look bad at all." I then went throughout the shirt and replaced any rings that were missing rivets, etc. I then put a couple of slits up the sides for easier movement. Intially I had intended to leave it at that but nooooooooooooo.
Then came the coif and the helmet. The coif was fairly good to go but it needed a vineager bath to remove the black gunk from it and it needed the face opening closed up as well. Then I decided to paint the helm as I've always thought that was a facet largely neglected by most people portraying this era. Then it was "I need a matching shield", "Hey I could paint that spear!", etc., etc. I finally decided to give into the madness and concluded that I had to go all out and do it up right (or as right as I could given the materials).
So here's what we have in terms of time and cost.
Time
Roughly six months of intensive effort by me, and my wife's ulitmate restraint in putting up with me spending hours in the garage working on this thing, having mail laid out on the dining room table for days at a time, me getting sand all over the kitchen and bathroom floors, getting paint all over the garage floor, the lawn mower, camping equipment, etc., and finally me almost gasing myself with muriatic acid/zinc vapor gas. I get a bit 'focused' when I get into things like this and I tend to go-go until it's finished.
Cost
We won't count the PJ since that far outstrips everything else combined in terms of cost. We will count the Albion Reeve though since it will be the eventual sword used for this kit.
Hard kit
Helmet: $75.00 (There was a screw up in delivery on this helmet so Stephen Brown of get Dressed For Battle picked up the shipping as a goodwill gesture, other wise the cost would have doubled.)
Coif: $285.00 from Historic Enterprises
Hauberk: $420.00 (A rough estimate combining the original shirt's cost and the cost of the additional rings.)
Spear: $180.00 from A&A
Shield: Free. (Kindly donated by Allan Senefelder of The Mercenary's Tailor. Allan wanted to show support for my efforts and gave me a small anvil free of charge as well. Very gracious of Allan and much much appreciated.) I do have another shield coming that will serve as an alternative so we'll tack on an additional $100.00 for that.
Sword: $600.00
Let's add maybe $20.00 for paint.
Soft kit
Tunic: $50.00 for material
Chausses and Braies: $80.00 from Revival Clothing
Boots: $75.00 also from Revival
Belt: $45.00 leather from Tandy and fittings from Raymond's Quiet Press
(A gambeson will eventually be added but no guess on the cost of materials as of yet.)
Rough total cost: $1930.00
(Compare this with the cost of a full blown plate harness, or with having this kind of gear custom made and I think you'll find that a little time and elbow grease is well spent.)
One of the things that really helped me was the fact that I have worked with butted mail several times in years past. Consequently my learning curve was rather steep on that. I was already familiar with the basic patterns and concepts so once I got the process of riveting down it all went fairly smooth (with a couple of exceptions!)
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Sat 10 Dec, 2005 9:13 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 10 Dec, 2005 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Addison C. de Lisle wrote: | | Patrick wrote: | | For the last few months I've been on some new medication. One of the pleasant side effects is that it has increased my muscle mass by quite a bit. |
Heh, I could use some of that, no time to work out with all of these exams... 
I'm very impressed with your wifes' work. I guess I'll just hope my sister becomes a good seamstress over the summer.  |
My wife has been a seamstress since she was a small child. It's come in quite handy considering our reenactment activities over the years!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 7:55 am Post subject: |
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When it comes to using long sleeve/skirt hauberks with viking kit, there is few or no sources on them, and the "mail t-shirt" is thus modern convention.
Long sleeved mail has a lot more going for it than leather bracers, at any rate...
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 11:17 am Post subject: |
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$1930 doesn't sound bad for the material cost, considering what you have achieved, however...
| Patrick Kelly wrote: | ...Time
Roughly six months of intensive effort by me, and my wife's ulitmate restraint in putting up with me spending hours in the garage working on this thing, having mail laid out on the dining room table for days at a time, me getting sand all over the kitchen and bathroom floors, getting paint all over the garage floor, the lawn mower, camping equipment, etc., and finally me almost gasing myself with muriatic acid/zinc vapor gas. I get a bit 'focused' when I get into things like this and I tend to go-go until it's finished.... |
...You didn't really answer my question on manhours. As I think back, I recall a lot of the discussions on individual components (e.g., the gassing incident  ). And, good grief, it has only been 6 months! Intensive? Yeah - this looks to me like hundreds of hours of effort  (in particular, the effort on the maille). Of course, most people, probably including you, are not as klutzy as I am, so maybe I am overestimating the hours involved.
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve wrote: | | ...You didn't really answer my question on manhours. |
No I didn't did I. Well, duh. I guess I typed that for nothing.
I suppose that shows where my focus is at. I'm more concerned with the cost of material rather than how long something will take. It's done when it's done and we don't stop until it is. All I can tell you is that there were many days where I spent 4-5 hours hunched over the dining room table working on the mail. When I started this project I didn't have any idea how far it would go so I'm afraid i didn't keep track of the total hours.
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | ...All I can tell you is that there were many days where I spent 4-5 hours hunched over the dining room table working on the mail.... |
Bingo. That says it, Patrick. Say 5 hrs/day only 2 days/week for 26 weeks - that gets you 260 hours right there!
"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Bob Burns
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Patrick,
WOW! An enormous amount of dedication and perseverence have resulting in one very classy looking kit!
You have every right to be extremely proud of yourself. Sounds like you lucked out in life with a wonderful wife as did I, she has tolerated and even likes my sword and weaponry display in the livingroom.
Beautiful Patrick, absolutely beautiful and thanks for sharing the pictures, your son has a look of nobility to him, perhaps a crown prince.
Most Sincerely,
Bob
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 11 Dec, 2005 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | I suppose that shows where my focus is at. I'm more concerned with the cost of material rather than how long something will take. It's done when it's done and we don't stop until it is. All I can tell you is that there were many days where I spent 4-5 hours hunched over the dining room table working on the mail. When I started this project I didn't have any idea how far it would go so I'm afraid i didn't keep track of the total hours. |
I generally echo this sentiment... I get to work on something, and both time and, to a much lesser degree, cost seem to blur, even when I make an effort to keep up with both. Stuff like weaving maille, I would work 15 minutes here, 30 minutes there... I know how long it takes me to get a certain size patch of the stuff made, and I've estimated it from that.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Steve Grisetti wrote: | | Patrick Kelly wrote: | | ...All I can tell you is that there were many days where I spent 4-5 hours hunched over the dining room table working on the mail.... |
Bingo. That says it, Patrick. Say 5 hrs/day only 2 days/week for 26 weeks - that gets you 260 hours right there! |
Let's go with the six month's time frame on the mail. There were a few days here and there when I didn't work on it at all but not many. Some days were all-day affairs while others might see an hour's work being done. So going with roughly 180 days at a conservative 3 hours a day that gives me 540 hours on the mail alone. I'd say that I spent roughly 8 hours work on painting the helm over two or three days, so let's add that and round up to 550 hours. Add 5 hours work on the shield for 555 hours. Finally if we include assembly time on the soft kit: belts, clothing, etc., we'll probably wind up at a rough estimate of 600 man hours for this project.
Since I have a few more items coming that will entail a few hours of work this figure will undoubtedly increase.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Tue 13 Dec, 2005 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Me wrote: | | Since I have a few more items coming that will entail a few hours of work this figure will undoubtedly increase. |
Scratch one of those new items. I ordered a Depeeka-made kite shield to try out. While it is taller than the Merc. T. shield it's also too curved in it's cross section and it's warped to boot. This one goes back. While smaller, the Merc. T. shield is far superior in every other aspect.
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