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R. Mcwilliams




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Location: Texas
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Helm from St. Justina stone carving         Reply with quote

Hello Members,

I have run the search engine for the St. Justina stone carving of the knight with the nice helm, mail and shield.
I found a small pic on this site.
I guess I am to new to enlarge it... as The message says I need to register.

What I am looking for... is more historical documentation and views.
Page 52 in "Arms & Armour of the Medieval Knight"
Says: 1210 Church of St Justina, Padua.
Goggle has not helped very much.

Does this helm have a nasal?

This is my impression so far:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/halberds/SeptAotM2.jpg

Thank you,

R. McWilliams

Caveat Emptor
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You're registered now so you can view the image in high resolution should you wish.

The image in question is in our Oakeshott Type XII Spotlight article.

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 8:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello and welcome to myArmoury.com. Happy

It looks like you're referring to this picture from our Oakeshott Type XII spotlight



The face is protected by an attached face mask. This form is a precursor to the great helm and fits somewhere between conical helms with nasal bars and the fully developed heaume, or great helm.

Looking at it closely in the book, there appears to be some kind of bump in the nose area. It doesn't look, though, like there's a nasal riveted to the rim around the helm, like we'd expect. Maybe the face mask is shaped to give more room for the nose?

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/


Last edited by Chad Arnow on Tue 19 Sep, 2006 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 8:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like a face mask or plate protection of an early type of great helm pierced with eye holes and breathes.

Oh, and welcome to the site. Don't forget to look at all the feature articles, reviews, collections, etc ...... as well as links: There is a lot of material here and not just the information available on the forums.

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R. Mcwilliams




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Location: Texas
Posts: 4
PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes thank you, that is the best pic so far.

When I click on the small one it I get:
Snip
( www.myArmoury.com:
You must be a registered member to view high resolution images. Registration is free. Please register and log in to access this feature.)
End snip.

Is their any close ups of the helm taken from the left side?
The bump in the face plate hints of a nasal, Yes?

Ron McWilliams

Ps: Thank you Chad and Nathan for the welcome and the pic.

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 8:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

R. Mcwilliams wrote:
Yes thank you, that is the best pic so far.

Is their any close ups of the helm taken from the left side?
The bump in the face plate hints of a nasal, Yes?

Ron McWilliams

Ps: Thank you Chad and Nathan for the welcome and the pic.


That's the only pic of that carving that I've seen published (not that I've seen it all, though). I can't recall any pot helms with face masks that also have a nasal. The nasal would be ornamental/vestigial since the mask would do more protecting than the nasal.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006 10:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ron,

Good to have you here! I have to say your helmet is turning out very nicely. I think it is more a shaped nasal out of the facemask than a nasal rivetted over the facemask. That being said, when I enlarge it om my computer it does get fuzzy but it could go either way.. What would you think would look best?

RPM
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Jonathon Janusz




PostPosted: Wed 20 Sep, 2006 5:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello and welcome. I have the same message problem when viewing pictures sometimes. The solution is that you have to be logged into the web site with your user name and password to get it to work properly; I often browse this site without logging in and usually get tripped up somewhere while clicking through. Happy

About the helm, if you are looking for other representations in art of a similar style, turn the page in AAoMK to 54-55. check out the figure in the bottom panel on 54 on the very left edge of the photo. On 55, the figures in the photo on the right side are all wearing a similar helm and there is one illustrated on the ground near the bottom left corner.

For reference, these images are from the Silver Shrine of Charlemagne, Aachen Cathedral, dated c1207, as noted in the book.


Cheers!
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Bruno Giordan




PostPosted: Fri 22 Sep, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
R. Mcwilliams wrote:
Yes thank you, that is the best pic so far.

Is their any close ups of the helm taken from the left side?
The bump in the face plate hints of a nasal, Yes?

Ron McWilliams

Ps: Thank you Chad and Nathan for the welcome and the pic.


That's the only pic of that carving that I've seen published (not that I've seen it all, though). I can't recall any pot helms with face masks that also have a nasal. The nasal would be ornamental/vestigial since the mask would do more protecting than the nasal.


The pic we have is overespoed and lacks detail right in the supposed nasal area.

I had the impression of something strange too, but the conditions of the image don't allow any conclusion to be drawn, while probably being the cause of a mistake.

The only solution is a trip to Padova (one and half hour from my home at leisure pace), hoping to find a friendly friar that will show me where the stone carving is.

BTW, I found the website of the basilica but they are completely unaware of this precious carving.

This is the website of the Abbazia (Abbey)

http://www.abbaziasantagiustina.org/
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R. Mcwilliams




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Location: Texas
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Sep, 2006 9:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

HI Bruno,

Thanks for the great web site link. That is truly a marvelous place. I have searched the web well and not found anything more.

I finished my helm although, I did not have much time to work on it. It is rather crude. Yes?
I think it is the lost link between spangens and the McBible style flat top face helm. The time line seems to be about right.

If you are ever up that way bring a print of the carving who knows one just might know where it is located.
That sure is a big place though.

Thank you all for your research help.

Ron

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Merv Cannon




PostPosted: Sat 23 Sep, 2006 12:25 am    Post subject: Helm at St Justina's         Reply with quote

Hi there.........I had a little better luck with a very quick Google-picture search. When I typed in "Church of St Justina, Padua" I got nothing. When I cut out "Padua" I got a few and when I just used "St. Justina " I got around 400. On the first page was a helm made by Windrose Armoury , here......... http://windrosearmoury.com/zen_new/index.php?...cPath=4_15 ...... its the last one botton left. Unfortunately its got the typical SCA anti neck-boffer grill on it but the rest looks ok. If you e-mail them they might give you some more reference ?


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Interresting Helm, Justina by Windrosearmoury.jpg


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Bruno Giordan




PostPosted: Sat 23 Sep, 2006 2:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gave a phone call to the friars, the friar doorman seems to know nothing about the carving, anyway they will let people tour the place.

Next week I will try to contact the state agency for antiquities, the Soprintendenza ai monumenti.

They shuld know better and have a pic or two in their archives.

This is the real address and new phone number for the basilica and convent

Abbazia Santa Giustina
35123 Padova (PD) - Via G. Ferrari, 2/A

* 049 8220411 049 8220431
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