Richard, please start a new topic in the Historical Arms Talk forum regarding armour weights. Feel free to share your table from Blair and let's start up a new conversation. It's a very interesting topic and worth discussing on its own. I was going to split off these posts, but they're somewhat tied together and so I won't go to that trouble...
| George Hill wrote: |
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Now hang on just a minute here. |
George, I think a javelin thrown from horseback is capable of killing a man through a wooden shield. Its the part about going through the shield, man and impaling the shaft halfway into the ground that I consider fantasy and revisionist history. I would cite the Battle of Hastings as an easy reference for thrown spears killing infantry through their shields. Not frequently though or repeated attacks would have succeeded. Throwing weapons, even at the gallop, isn't as effective a cavalry tactic as couching the lance. If it was, why are thrown weapons rarely used by cavalry in favour of the couched lance from the twelfth century on?
Are you aware of a single instance of a medieval warrior on foot being impaled to the ground through his shield by a thrown horseman's spear? Even in sagas? No? Me neither. Hence my irritation with the myth being perpetuated.
Please don't help plant weeds where we might plant oak trees. ;)
| Kel Rekuta wrote: | ||
George, I think a javelin thrown from horseback is capable of killing a man through a wooden shield. Its the part about going through the shield, man and impaling the shaft halfway into the ground that I consider fantasy and revisionist history. I would cite the Battle of Hastings as an easy reference for thrown spears killing infantry through their shields. Not frequently though or repeated attacks would have succeeded. Throwing weapons, even at the gallop, isn't as effective a cavalry tactic as couching the lance. If it was, why are thrown weapons rarely used by cavalry in favour of the couched lance from the twelfth century on? Are you aware of a single instance of a medieval warrior on foot being impaled to the ground through his shield by a thrown horseman's spear? Even in sagas? No? Me neither. Hence my irritation with the myth being perpetuated. ) |
Ah. If it's the bit about the ground you have trouble with, that's somewhat more understandable. What with all the sarcasim I was under the impression you didn't think a thrown spear from a horse would work on a shield at all.
Of course, the reason the couched lance came to be prefered might have a great many reasons other then a lack of effect from the individual javelin. It's entirely possible that repeated charges with the Javelin wore their horses out. It's possible that it did a good bit of damage, but they lacked the communications or coordination between units to immediately take advantage of the damage with a push of infantry, and didn't feel comfortable pushing home on their own.
It's possible that the number of Javelins they could deliever from horseback just wasn't great enough a number to break a solid line, which could close up before they could take advantage of the hurt they inflicted.
On the other hand we have the couched lance, and I've contemplated on this, and I haven't found nearly as much information as I would like about what happened when a charge hit home. It's possible the counched lance went through quite a few people, and it's possible the horse followed it in like a equine bowling ball, breaking the line and scattering it's defenders so the Knights could pick them off with sword and mace.
It's also possible the Knights just plain LIKED the up close and personal nature of the lance better then the use of the Javelin.
And if you want to disprove the idea that it goes a ways into the ground, I invite you to do so! Set up some tests, get some fellows who know their stuff on hocking spears off the backs of horses, and prove it. Personally I think it would most likely have a great deal to do with the hardness of the soil at the place and time involved.
But actually DO the proof before you discount it.
In my opinion the change in tactics from javelin to lance came about because of a change in opponent. At Hastings the Norman cavalry faced an army of professional heavy infantry, and knew better than to engage them at close quarters. But by the twelfth century few if any European armies were using heavy infantry, and knights could charge in with couched lances and drive the infantry from the field. Later centuries saw the re-emergence of professional infantry, and knights who had lost respect for infantry died in their droves.
| Quote: |
| Throwing weapons, even at the gallop, isn't as effective a cavalry tactic as couching the lance. |
That depends entirely on whom you are fighting and the circumstances of the battle. The Spanish Ginetes often did quite well with their javelins. Fourquevoux noted how deadly these javelins were against unarmoured men. They probably could pierce some kinds of armour, too. Vegetius, at least, wrote that javelins would penetrate mail.
| D. Bell wrote: |
| In my opinion the change in tactics from javelin to lance came about because of a change in opponent. At Hastings the Norman cavalry faced an army of professional heavy infantry, and knew better than to engage them at close quarters. But by the twelfth century few if any European armies were using heavy infantry, and knights could charge in with couched lances and drive the infantry from the field. Later centuries saw the re-emergence of professional infantry, and knights who had lost respect for infantry died in their droves. |
I have to disagree, heavy infantry never vanished from the european armies, heavy infantry served in many armies of the 12th century. We have the mixture of foot sergeants and dismounted knights in the Anglo-Norman armies, the heavily armed flemish mercenary foot, the North Italian militas which defeanted the armies of the Friedrich Barbarossa and the heavy foot of which formed such an important part in the battle sof the Third Crusade.
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