Carl;
Oh, on the Religion comments I was just being careful not wanting to offend your or anybody else's sensibilities and was making a general comment: From your reply I see that this wasn't an issue with you. :cool:
The coincidence thing still doesn't bother me, as least not in these two novels: Meeting up with the SAS guy may seem like a wild coincidence but far from impossible.
Now up here in Canada if the story was situated here the same level of coincidence would be to meet with a JTF 2 super elite commando type: Not many of those guys around but when 99% of the population ends up a casualty the odds for the commando guy to still be around would be higher than most and higher than mine !
In any case no disputing your reaction to the book: I just liked it better than you did, it seems, and any " coincidences " didn't even register or annoy me on first reading.
Now I can agree that a line can be crossed were people show impossible levels of skill with no background to justify it as in the example you gave:
QUOTE: "So apparently, the pretty little delicate princess who's never done a day's work or held a weapon in her life was able to pick up a longbow with an 80-pound draw weight, distinguish her lover from the guy he was fighting 300 feet away by a yellow scarf around his arm, nock and fire two arrows in rapid succession, and both of them not only hit the bad guy, but managed to get him right through the eyes."
Personally I have trouble with the trend in movies for improbable / impossible stunts that kill all sense of realism.
I can suspend disbelief if the character has superpowers but not normal humans doing superhuman stuff.
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
| I would think that someone skilled at a high level in swordsmanship and archery would have a big advantage over someone picking a sword up for the first time no matter how savage that person might be. The cold-hearted killers might have an advantage not having any inhibitions using violence. If some of your characters have actual military experience they have both skills and the experience to not freeze up or hesitate to act quickly enough. |
The last time I dabbled in the combat practices of the SCA, the phrase "skilled at a high level in swordsmanship and archery" didn't spring immediately to my mind. Granted, this was about ten years ago, and many things might have changed since then with the contributions of Mr. Clements, Mr. Tobler, Mr. Windsor and others.
However, I'm afraid that I'll still have to place my money on the side of the cold-blooded killers. Skill in a controlled and safe environment is different from skill in a life and death fight. A person unaccustomed to utilizing speed, surprise and violence of action in earnest will be at a substantial disadvantage to a gang member with a bat. And a single stroke from either weapon can be lethal. That's not to say that there aren't people of our community who wouldn't adapt quickly, just that they're far more likely to freeze in the moment of action or be stunned the first time they take a serious hit than the aforementioned gang member. Certainly, military or police experience will count for quite a bit in this world, especially with regard to the organizational skills required to mobilize large numbers of people and ensure that they’re all working in productive ways. That would be more valuable in a post-apocalyptic scenario than the mere possession of fighting skills. As the saying goes, amateurs study tactics while professionals study logistics.
I must say, though, I’ll be sad to see Albion, Angus Trim and anyone else who uses machines in their work have to go back to coal fires and anvils. That will seriously limit the number of swords that they can make. And that leads into my main gripe with this kind of story. The laws of physics that govern coal fires, the tempering of steel, the tensile strength of a bow and the ballistics of an arrow in flight are the same laws that put the space shuttle in orbit. It’s absurd to try to suspend technology because pulleys, levers, coal fires, swords and bows are themselves technology, guided in their use and manufacture by the very same principles that eventually produced the Industrial and Information Ages. In the end, we wouldn’t even get to bash each other’s skulls in with rocks because the internal chemistry of our bodies would shut down around the same time the chemical processes in our cars did. It’s a very selective and convenient suspension of technology that leaves only the technology that one feels would grant them supremacy. It might be a nice thought when one isn’t thinking about just how disgusting it would be to carve someone up with a sword, but I still just can’t run with that. Especially when I think of a pack of LARP guys running around pretending to be the descendants of the Kings of Numenor and calling themselves Rangers. I’m a big geek, but damn…
I know I’m overanalyzing this, but this isn’t the first time I’ve seen this kind of a plot. Perhaps it’s better executed in these books then I’ve seen it done in the past. I guess I’ll have to read them and find out.
| Sam Barris wrote: | ||
However, I'm afraid that I'll still have to place my money on the side of the cold-blooded killers. The laws of physics that govern coal fires, the tempering of steel, the tensile strength of a bow and the ballistics of an arrow in flight are the same laws that put the space shuttle in orbit. It’s absurd to try to suspend technology because pulleys, levers, coal fires, swords and bows are themselves technology, guided in their use and manufacture by the very same principles that eventually produced the Industrial and Information Ages. In the end, we wouldn’t even get to bash each other’s skulls in with rocks because the internal chemistry of our bodies would shut down around the same time the chemical processes in our cars did. It’s a very selective and convenient suspension of technology that leaves only the technology that one feels would grant them supremacy. |
Realities of the real average skills of SCA or WMA I couldn't tell you about that in real life: In the books the people have real skills with the more authentic forms of swordsmanship or high levels of archery skills. And some of the main characters are SAS and Special forces types who have seen action before: So freezing up shouldn't be a problem for them when real violence is needed. Some of the other characters have to adapt from a lower level of preparedness.
The laws of physics thing is even addressed by the characters who themselves are puzzled by the selectiveness of changes in the laws of nature and there is an attempt in the books to explain it. Bottom line is that we, the readers are led to believe that this is something done to us by Aliens with God like powers. So far the author has not gone into any detail who these Aliens might be, and is using this merely as a way to set up the conditions to the story.
In his previous trilogy, the whole Island of Nantucket and it's population is " magically " sent back in time to 1450 B.C. in the Bronze age by the same Aliens were they retain their technology. This new series is what happens to the rest of the Earth. The whole thing seems like an experiment by very advanced but also very nasty Aliens having some sadistic fun with humanity. ( Previous series called " Island in a Sea of Time " or something close to. )
Sort of reminds me of those Star Trek episodes like " The Squire of Gothos " in the original series or Q in the Next Generation series have the power to manipulate the laws of nature selectively.
Oh, and I'm now the one over thinking or at least over explaining. :eek: :lol: So maybe some will like the Books like me and some won't. :cool:
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
| Sort of reminds me of those Star Trek episodes like " The Squire of Gothos " in the original series or Q in the Next Generation series have the power to manipulate the laws of nature selectively. |
Or perhaps Day of the Dove, in which an alien entity that feeds on pure hatred changes all of the phasers to swords and then pits Federation personnel and Klingons in an eternal battle, going so far as to heal their wounds when they're killed to keep the supply of hatred flowing.
Told you I was a geek. :cool:
I guess I can find it in my heart to accept aliens with godlike powers. Wouldn't want to insult them, in any event.
Well, if we are mentioning Star Trek episodes, how can we forget 'Arena' where Kirk is forced by those androgynous god-like aliens to battle the Gorn without the benefit of 23rd century technology? He built a cannon!
Ken, :D Star Trek Geek,
known to some as Mirimaran, which gets Tolkien geeky :cool:
Ken, :D Star Trek Geek,
known to some as Mirimaran, which gets Tolkien geeky :cool:
Someday I want to build a cannon out of bamboo, sulphur, potassium nitrate and charcoal, and then fire diamonds into the hearts of my enemies.
Oh, yes. :D
Oh, yes. :D
| Sam Barris wrote: |
| Someday I want to build a cannon out of bamboo, sulphur, potassium nitrate and charcoal, and then fire diamonds into the hearts of my enemies.
Oh, yes. :D |
Or sell the diamonds to buy a " Pulse laser " in the 5000 megawatt range, micro nuclear holy hand grenades and battle armour with a personal force field micro nuclear holy hand grenade exploding 5 yards away proof. :p :p :p
Geekfest of Terminator / Monty Python / Generic Sci. Fi. battle suit stuff. :eek: :lol:
Now things have gotten really silly. :p
| Sam Barris wrote: |
| Someday I want to build a cannon out of bamboo, sulphur, potassium nitrate and charcoal, and then fire diamonds into the hearts of my enemies.
Oh, yes. :D |
Apologies for threadromancy - and if this has been covered in another thread since - but Stirling has a second trilogy based on this first.
I personally found the first set poorly written, with one-dimensional characterisation, dialogue bordering on the absurd, and overblown plotlines ... but, hey, it's the end of industrial civilisation and we get to finally use swords, so I couldn't resist.
And the fact that the main 'bad guy' is an ex-SCA bigshot is kinda amusing, in its own way ... :D
Now to plow on through the second set, looking for the occasional moment of realism, or a scenario that gets me thinking ...
With respect to my SCA brothers here ...
I personally found the first set poorly written, with one-dimensional characterisation, dialogue bordering on the absurd, and overblown plotlines ... but, hey, it's the end of industrial civilisation and we get to finally use swords, so I couldn't resist.
And the fact that the main 'bad guy' is an ex-SCA bigshot is kinda amusing, in its own way ... :D
Now to plow on through the second set, looking for the occasional moment of realism, or a scenario that gets me thinking ...
With respect to my SCA brothers here ...
I made it half way through the first book in the first series before I had to throw it away, trite drivel for the hghschoolish wannabe crowd. If I read any more of this authors work I'll just be a few hours closer to being dead with nothing to show for it.
The first book of the series was the only one that held any real interest to me. The following books, which I have read up to I think it was The Sunrise Lands or something like that, are fairly irritating. The primary character in the later books reminds me of a human Drizzt Do'Urden. I gave up on that dark elf narrative about the time of The Thousand Orcs(read The Halflings Gem in 1991). Uber swordsman with special powers and a special relationship with a supernatural or alien agency. Bleh. He cannot be defeated, he's true hearted but condescending to everyone who doesn't follow the old way. He has a special brand of subtle mockery for christians and christianity, which by the fifth book or so becomes patently annoying. By the gods though, the wizened buddhists in the mountains deserve all respect and admiration for their kung fu is strong! Could have been a good series...not turning out to be.
G.R.R. Martin > S.M. Stirling when it comes to sword and fantasy novel writing.
It's an ode to the notion of 'the Middle Ages' as they ought have been.
G.R.R. Martin > S.M. Stirling when it comes to sword and fantasy novel writing.
It's an ode to the notion of 'the Middle Ages' as they ought have been.
| Sam Barris wrote: |
| Or perhaps Day of the Dove, in which an alien entity that feeds on pure hatred changes all of the phasers to swords and then pits Federation personnel and Klingons in an eternal battle, going so far as to heal their wounds when they're killed to keep the supply of hatred flowing. |
That was a favorite amongst my childhood friends in the 70s. By the way, I still remember watching the first run series (actually the first non-pilot episode) on TV in the 60s until my parents decided it was too scary for a small child.
Maybe the grandaddy of this plotline was a short story from either Ray Bradbury or Isaac Asminov (I can't remember which). In that story a technology was invented to defeat high-speed projectile weapons, something like the 'star wars' technology, so people turned to things like poison arrows. The punch line was that war just continued and got nastier (though this seems to ignore weapons of mass distruction, biological weapons, and all the other delights of our age).
Kaor!
Stirling has written many great books and series of books . My favorites are the alternate timeline Draka series and his Lords of Creation novels set on a mars and venus terraformed by aliens 200 milion years ago. Stirling does his homework and creates a vividly realistic scenario. Another good one is the Peshawar Lancers. I am looking forward to more like these.
Stirling has written many great books and series of books . My favorites are the alternate timeline Draka series and his Lords of Creation novels set on a mars and venus terraformed by aliens 200 milion years ago. Stirling does his homework and creates a vividly realistic scenario. Another good one is the Peshawar Lancers. I am looking forward to more like these.
Well, I must report my utter failure to even begin to read any of these books in the six years since this thread started. In the end, I guess I’ve just had a falling out with works of fantasy that serve mainly as a vehicle for wish fulfillment, and these certainly appear to qualify. Sadly, that description can also be applied to a vast amount of contemporary fantasy, though it is usually a bit more subtle. Mark and Patrick, thank you for assuring me I didn’t miss out on anything vital to my future happiness.
Well, it depends on what one likes to read. ;)
I personally enjoy escapist Sci-Fi Alternate reality and/or alternate time line fiction.
I most liked the first novels of each series, the first series where the Island of Nantucket is transported back into the past was to me mostly a survival novel or a " what if novel " where " Modern people with modern technology, but little resources to maintain it re-learn how to make things from scratch using the specialized knowledge of a few of the people transported back in time who actually know how things where made, and also interact with the period cultures as we know them and as credibly imagined as having " surprises " invented by the author that sounded plausible in a fictional context.
As an example: Just because we use technology doesn't mean we each of us understand any of it well enough to be able to recreate it if we had to. I know in principle how a light bulb works but give me 12th century technology and I wouldn't know where to begin building the tools that build the tools that build the light bulb, but if 5000 of us where transported into the past with a wide range of practical technical knowledge we might be able to start the process of building the tools to re-acquire some of our modern technology, and that is what the first novel of the first series is all about that I found well written and plausible.
Once one accepts the premise these kind of books pay off if the plotting is clever and somewhat reality based.
As these series develop from one book to the next this initial " reality based writing " can evolve into it's own context that may turn, as in the second series of books, into a more fantasy genre with varying levels of success and also evolve into a continuing " soap opera " that one can enjoy or grow to hate if the story become too repetitive or strays too far from the original genre(s) of the first book in the series.
I'm still enjoying the second series of books, but maybe just out of habit or just wanting to know how it ends !
Note: If the ending is as unsatisfactory as the ending of the Lost T.V. show I might change my mind about the whole series.
Also note that the first book was and still is to me an interesting story of survival and entertaining as a tale where ancient hand to hand fighting skills become again very important and various groups evolve into tribes, clans or feudal political entities to survive.
At this point the series has evolved into a World where Gods and Demi-Gods and magic have some reality, and " Religions " also may all be " True " in spite of the contradictions, as different ways the same mystical forces show themselves.
The premise seems to me to be of alternate realities i.e. Multiverses of possibility acting as a stage where the characters of the novels act, but where a higher reality of " good versus evils " are fighting it out by proxy.
Possibly I'm over-thinking this, and anyone not enjoying these kinds of books need not read them. ;) :D :cool:
Oh, and best selling novelists doesn't prove that the books are good, or beyond criticism or merit outright dislike by some, but it does prove that enough people like the books/genre to sell large numbers of them. :lol: ( If it's crap, it's popular crap :p ).
I personally enjoy escapist Sci-Fi Alternate reality and/or alternate time line fiction.
I most liked the first novels of each series, the first series where the Island of Nantucket is transported back into the past was to me mostly a survival novel or a " what if novel " where " Modern people with modern technology, but little resources to maintain it re-learn how to make things from scratch using the specialized knowledge of a few of the people transported back in time who actually know how things where made, and also interact with the period cultures as we know them and as credibly imagined as having " surprises " invented by the author that sounded plausible in a fictional context.
As an example: Just because we use technology doesn't mean we each of us understand any of it well enough to be able to recreate it if we had to. I know in principle how a light bulb works but give me 12th century technology and I wouldn't know where to begin building the tools that build the tools that build the light bulb, but if 5000 of us where transported into the past with a wide range of practical technical knowledge we might be able to start the process of building the tools to re-acquire some of our modern technology, and that is what the first novel of the first series is all about that I found well written and plausible.
Once one accepts the premise these kind of books pay off if the plotting is clever and somewhat reality based.
As these series develop from one book to the next this initial " reality based writing " can evolve into it's own context that may turn, as in the second series of books, into a more fantasy genre with varying levels of success and also evolve into a continuing " soap opera " that one can enjoy or grow to hate if the story become too repetitive or strays too far from the original genre(s) of the first book in the series.
I'm still enjoying the second series of books, but maybe just out of habit or just wanting to know how it ends !
Note: If the ending is as unsatisfactory as the ending of the Lost T.V. show I might change my mind about the whole series.
Also note that the first book was and still is to me an interesting story of survival and entertaining as a tale where ancient hand to hand fighting skills become again very important and various groups evolve into tribes, clans or feudal political entities to survive.
At this point the series has evolved into a World where Gods and Demi-Gods and magic have some reality, and " Religions " also may all be " True " in spite of the contradictions, as different ways the same mystical forces show themselves.
The premise seems to me to be of alternate realities i.e. Multiverses of possibility acting as a stage where the characters of the novels act, but where a higher reality of " good versus evils " are fighting it out by proxy.
Possibly I'm over-thinking this, and anyone not enjoying these kinds of books need not read them. ;) :D :cool:
Oh, and best selling novelists doesn't prove that the books are good, or beyond criticism or merit outright dislike by some, but it does prove that enough people like the books/genre to sell large numbers of them. :lol: ( If it's crap, it's popular crap :p ).
Well said, sir. And please believe that, while I may criticize a book, I would never criticize the person who chooses to place it on his or her shelf. Except perhaps in the case of Twilight, but that's neither here nor there. ;)
FWIW, I'm really looking forward to The Mongoliad. That seems right up our collective alley. :D
FWIW, I'm really looking forward to The Mongoliad. That seems right up our collective alley. :D
A friend gave me these books last week. I am only on chapter 4 of the 1st book. I have only read one other Stirling book. Its ok so far, I do find it funny that the bad guy is an SCA dude. That made me laugh.
| Sam Barris wrote: |
| Well said, sir. And please believe that, while I may criticize a book, I would never criticize the person who chooses to place it on his or her shelf. Except perhaps in the case of Twilight, but that's neither here nor there. ;)
FWIW, I'm really looking forward to The Mongoliad. That seems right up our collective alley. :D |
Very true Sam, and well said. I certainly don't equate a persons worth with the type of literature they enjoy. My wife is an educated professional, yet enjoys trashy romance novels and I've been married to her for twenty eight years. :D
I happen to enjoy sci-fi and fantasy fiction, but I just don't find this particular writer very skilled or this particular series well written. I enjoy George Martins work (when he actually chooses to write anything), I particularly like Guy Gavriel Kays writing and I enjoy Bernard Cornwells historic fiction. I just find this particular effort quite sophomoric and mediocre. All of us medieval wannabes get to live out our fantasies in an "end of the world as we know it" scenario? Done to death.
I enjoyed Sterling's series. Not so much because Sterling is the greatest writer or the plot exceptional but because I'm very familiar with the Oregon locals he uses in the novels.
| Ken Jay wrote: |
| I enjoyed Sterling's series. Not so much because Sterling is the greatest writer or the plot exceptional but because I'm very familiar with the Oregon locals he uses in the novels. |
Yes that does make a book more fun and one can sort of reality check the quality of the author's research, at least about local geography.
In some of the later books I do find it personally disappointing that the remnants of the French Quebeckers seem to have all degenerated into the cannibalistic eaters. :( :( :( ;) :lol: : it doesn't ruin the plot for me but I would certainly have enjoyed more if there was a French Canadian " good guy/hero " in the story. :D
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