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Norman McCormick
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 Posted: Thu 12 Jul, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject: HELP! Identification of Persian sword |
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Hello, this is my first post and I'd like to know if anyone can help me identify the date and origins of manufacture of this Persian (?) sword as per attached photos. Any help on the matter would be much appreciated as my knowledge of eastern arms and armour is very limited.
Regards,
Norman
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Jeff Demetrick
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| Posted: Sun 15 Jul, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Hi Norman,
Is there anyway you could post a photo of the entire blade as well as a close up of the hilt?
Jeff
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Norman McCormick
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| Posted: Sun 15 Jul, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Dear Jeff,
No problem, I can post the photos you requested but it won't be for a few days as I'm a bit digitally challenged when it comes to resizing and posting images. I get my son to do it for me and believe it or not he has just left to go home five mins before I logged on after having altered some images for another post I want to do. If you can bear with me I would be most appreciative and I will endeavour to post extra images as soon as possible.
Regards,
Norman.
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Norman McCormick
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| Posted: Tue 17 Jul, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jeff,
Here are the photographs I promised.
Regards,
Norman.
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Jeff Demetrick
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| Posted: Tue 17 Jul, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Norman,
Thanks for the extra pictures this does help.
You have what looks like a 19th century Persian saber. The hilt is missing its original horn or ivory grips scales as well as the metal pommel cap. The quillon block is of classic Persian form. The blade is a persian trade blade.
Because of the reputation of the classic Persian shamshir, Many Persian blades were made in the 18th and 19th century to fill the demand both locally and for export. Some of the blades are of very high quality and produced from wootz steel, others are of lower quality and massed produced. Often the Persian lion in the Sun constellation is seen on these blades (the lion symbol on your blade). The exact meaning of this symbol is somewhat controversial but the generally accepted theory is that it is a pictogram of the famous Isfahan blade smith Assad Allah (Lion of God).
Your blade appears to be one of the 19th century mass produced blades. This can be seen in the execution of the fullers as well as in the lion logo. The high quality logo's have a cleft at the base of the tail, the massed produced logo's do not.
I am sorry that i cannot read the cartouche or the inscriptions on your example.
Over all you have a great piece with a lot of history behind it.
Hope this helps
Jeff
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Kerim Mamedov
Location: Poland Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Tue 17 Jul, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hi.
I can't see any numbers, so we can't say nothing about exact date, but it looks as Jeff says.
But Jeff, when you say "sham shir", you say "lions tale" "shir", not "asad" I think.
I'm not Fars, so I'm not 100% sure.
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Jeff Demetrick
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| Posted: Tue 17 Jul, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Kerim Mamedov wrote: | Hi.
I can't see any numbers, so we can't say nothing about exact date, but it looks as Jeff says.
But Jeff, when you say "sham shir", you say "lions tale" "shir", not "asad" I think.
I'm not Fars, so I'm not 100% sure. |
Hi Kerim,
Sorry about the confusion it is my fault (being a two finger typist I tend to be too brief). Shamshir is from the Persian language and means lion's tail (or lions blow), Assad Allah is Arabic for Lion of god.
Jeff
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Shamsi Modarai
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| Posted: Tue 17 Jul, 2007 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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I am Persian, and can attest that the Farsi language has a lot of Arabic vocabulary so often there are many different words that mean the same thing. However, I was always under the impression that the word Shamshir already had the more general meaning of "sword" by the Middle Persian period, and that the "lion's tail" association was simply a folk etymology. But perhaps I am just misinformed.....anyhoo, its not really a big deal so just ignore me. 
Coincidentally, my name is Shamsi (close but not quite Shamshir  ) and my brother's name is Asad'u'llah. 
Nice sword, by the way. I would love to own a Persian sword no matter what the time period!
Wa biš žam že sceal of langože leofes abidan.
~ The Wife's Lament
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Wed 18 Jul, 2007 12:43 am Post subject: |
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I think the writing in the cartouche says:
" Ma sha' allah, la hawl wa la quwah illa billah al'aley..." and I can't read the rest. It translates roughly as "God does as he wills, there is no strength or power except in God, the sublime..."
It looks like a fairly standard Muslim religious phrase, not the name of an importante personage etc.
AFAIK shamshir is simply farsi for "sword", western experts however usually use the word when referring specifically to Iranian swords.
Arabic, being the language of the Qur'an, has lent words to many other languages in the Middle-east and South Asia including Turkish, Farsi and Urdu.
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Norman McCormick
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| Posted: Wed 18 Jul, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Dear All,
Many thanks for your interest and your knowledge, I have a few more bits of Indo Persian and Indian arms on which I would like information regarding date and origin so please keep a look out for these.
Regards,
Norman.
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Manouchehr M.
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jul, 2007 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| Shamsi Modarai wrote: | I am Persian, and can attest that the Farsi language has a lot of Arabic vocabulary so often there are many different words that mean the same thing. However, I was always under the impression that the word Shamshir already had the more general meaning of "sword" by the Middle Persian period, and that the "lion's tail" association was simply a folk etymology. But perhaps I am just misinformed.....anyhoo, its not really a big deal so just ignore me.
Coincidentally, my name is Shamsi (close but not quite Shamshir ) and my brother's name is Asad'u'llah.
Nice sword, by the way. I would love to own a Persian sword no matter what the time period! |
Thank you Shamsi and the others for your input. Indeed shamshir is the general term for sword in Persian. It has nothing to do with highly curved or curved swords. You call any type of sword shamshir in Persian. Shamshir has its roots in the Pahlavi language as shafsheer and shamsheer so it has nothing to do with the curve of the sword as at timies written in some sources. I will show it in my ethymological study in my next book Lexicon of Arms and Armor from Iran. There You will see all the words written in OLd Persian (Avesta), Middle Persian (Pahlavi) and
New Persian) with a solid investigation of linguistic background.
HIsham thank you for the translation of the inscription, close to the sign of the lion there is also another inscription Ya Gadthi al Hajat (Oh Fulfiller of Wishes).
Regarding the trade blades, so far we have not been able to trace it in Iranican sources but we are combing hundres of books with the help of my students at the universities of Tehran and Isfahan in manuscripts and published books in National Libraries of Iran.
Thank you Normann for posting this. If you have any other questions regarding Persian weapons let me know.
Kind regards
Manouchehr
http://www.mmkhorasani.com
http://www.arms-and-armor-from-iran.de
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Manouchehr M.
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Kerim Mamedov
Location: Poland Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jul, 2007 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| Shamsi Modarai wrote: | | Coincidentally, my name is Shamsi (close but not quite Shamshir ) and my brother's name is Asad'u'llah. |
Well, my grandgrand father was Asadulla, and my aunt's father Shamsi
| Manouchehr M. wrote: |
Indeed shamshir is the general term for sword in Persian. It has nothing to do with highly curved or curved swords. You call any type of sword shamshir in Persian.
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That explains a lot of things. Now I have OffTop question - how you'll say "Lions tail" in farsi?
Kerim
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Manouchehr M.
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jul, 2007 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| Kerim Mamedov wrote: | | Shamsi Modarai wrote: | | Coincidentally, my name is Shamsi (close but not quite Shamshir ) and my brother's name is Asad'u'llah. |
Well, my grandgrand father was Asadulla, and my aunt's father Shamsi
| Manouchehr M. wrote: |
Indeed shamshir is the general term for sword in Persian. It has nothing to do with highly curved or curved swords. You call any type of sword shamshir in Persian.
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That explains a lot of things. Now I have OffTop question - how you'll say "Lions tail" in farsi?
Kerim |
Kerim,
excellent question. First let me please explain that there is no part of the lexeme shamshir that says "blow." So we can exclude it here fully. Now tail in Persian is "dom." Now when you combine two terms with each other to indicate a genetive relationship you add the suffix -e to the first word. So lion's tail means "dom-e shir". However, we are doing etymological research on sham. Sham has many meanings among them the paw, the claw.
Fact is that shamshir is an original Persian word that can be traced back to Pahlavi, when all swords were straight.
Kind regards
Manouchehr
http://www.mmkhorasani.com
http://www.arms-and-armor-from-iran.de
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Norman McCormick
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jul, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Dear Manouchehr,
Hope these photos of use.
Regards,
Norman.
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Curt Cummins
Location: Portland, OR Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jul, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Manoucher,
So what does the "Shams" in ab-i-joh Shams mean?
Curt
Ye braggarts and awe be a'skeered and awa, frae Brandoch Daha
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jul, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Cummins wrote: | Manoucher,
So what does the "Shams" in ab-i-joh Shams mean?Curt |
In Arabic "shams", with a short 'A' sound so that it is actually pronounced "shems" , means sun.
I've just read the rest of this, I think it says:
"...al-'azim ar-rahmaan ar-raheem". It simply translates as "...the great, the compassionate, the merciful". I'll need a bigger picture to be sure.
By the way it is read this way up.
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Curt Cummins
Location: Portland, OR Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jul, 2007 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Hisham. That was a little joke - ab-i-joh is Farsi for beer (water of barley), Shams was a popular brand
sold in the 1960's when I lived there. Unfortunately my Farsi is strictly pidgin, and I never learned to read Arabic calligraphy.
I must be missing something about the stamped cartouches - I don't see an Iranian lion and sun there. Are we talking about the same symbol from the pre-revolution flag and coins?
Curt
Ye braggarts and awe be a'skeered and awa, frae Brandoch Daha
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jul, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Cummins wrote: | Thank you Hisham. That was a little joke - ab-i-joh is Farsi for beer (water of barley), Shams was a popular brand
sold in the 1960's when I lived there. Unfortunately my Farsi is strictly pidgin, and I never learned to read Arabic calligraphy.
I must be missing something about the stamped cartouches - I don't see an Iranian lion and sun there. Are we talking about the same symbol from the pre-revolution flag and coins?
Curt |
I think this is it. It's very stylised though.
Attachment: 86.72 KB
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Curt Cummins
Location: Portland, OR Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Fri 20 Jul, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: |
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The bottom cartouche, right? I don't see the symbol that I am familiar with in that, but that doesn't mean it's not there.
My first impression was that it was an ibex or a deer curled up in sleep. Oh well, I'm no expert on Persian swords except to know that they did beautiful and exceptional work.
Curt
Ye braggarts and awe be a'skeered and awa, frae Brandoch Daha
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This is a standard topic