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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Fri 12 Oct, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject: 12th C stuff |
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Hi Craig
First off need to correct myself. Those are in the London Museum. Not sure what the date fix is for these whether context or similar example. I would hope it is some form of context. This museum is quite good at that type of thing.
The page below is from a book on Knives and Scabbards they put out and shows the knives from 12th C context. The variety of blade shapes can be seen and is indicative of the fact that we tend to want to say that something is this or that by shape and that can trip one up on dating.
I think the problem with daggers is that much of the dating is done by art comparison. This is a strong way to apply a solid date to a piece. In the case of daggers it leaves one with a gap from late Nordic art to the late 13th early 14th C when we get more and divergent depictions of the common soldier and civilian and the weapons they carried.
Earlier European Art has a tendency to depict the Biblical Highlights and the more mundane aspects of life are not shown as regularly as later art examples. This bears out when looking at the books on daggers and knives and they basically jump from Saxes of the 10th C to the multiple dagger styles of the late 13th early 14th C.
The two daggers I pictured are a good example of this. One is depicted in Petersons book and listed as 14th C. This is from 1968. The book that comments on them being 12th C is a recent publication by Thompson. One anticipates that there is more recent done to support the date that is in the newer reference. The work on this type of material is not great so there is a lot of good research that needs to be done and I think the picture you found opens a good window into realizing the 14th C probably did not see an explosion of new dagger types in its first two decades but that these were around and many like the antenna style hilt have probably always been around in some form.
Best
Craig
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Jared Smith
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| Posted: Fri 12 Oct, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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The last example gives me the impression that most of what is depicted are probably "single edged" implements, still suited for stabbing.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Sat 13 Oct, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: Re: 12th C stuff |
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| Craig Johnson wrote: | Hi Craig
First off need to correct myself. Those are in the London Museum. Not sure what the date fix is for these whether context or similar example. I would hope it is some form of context. This museum is quite good at that type of thing.
The page below is from a book on Knives and Scabbards they put out and shows the knives from 12th C context. The variety of blade shapes can be seen and is indicative of the fact that we tend to want to say that something is this or that by shape and that can trip one up on dating. |
So are you saying then that in your opinion, the other weapons on the page could be daggers? If that's the case, I'll grant you that some of the knives from the image you posted have fairly rounded points.
| Quote: | The two daggers I pictured are a good example of this. One is depicted in Petersons book and listed as 14th C. This is from 1968. The book that comments on them being 12th C is a recent publication by Thompson. One anticipates that there is more recent done to support the date that is in the newer reference.
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What's the name of this publication by Thompson?
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Sat 13 Oct, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Robin Smith wrote: | I would be leary of assuming a diamond profile, or assuming a similarity with later dagger blades simply because the pommels share a similar design. I would guess that dagger blades would have undergone as much change as sword blades from the period, as well as being influenced by those changes. Although a nice proof of existence, a line drawing like this isn't enough IMO to start making guesses for a reproduction. Darn it! I was hoping for alittle more detail  |
Truly Robin, if as Craig Johnson says, there's good evidence to support dating the two daggers he posted from the 12th century, then taking the bottom one as a starting point and replacing it with an antenna pommel is probably quite reasonable as an interpretation of an 11th century dagger. At this point, it's about the best you can do, and let's face it: now that we have evidence that daggers of this nature existed in your favourite time period, do you really want to leave your kit without one? I know I wouldn't.
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Sat 13 Oct, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | | Truly Robin, if as Craig Johnson says, there's good evidence to support dating the two daggers he posted from the 12th century, then taking the bottom one as a starting point and replacing it with an antenna pommel is probably quite reasonable as an interpretation of an 11th century dagger. At this point, it's about the best you can do, and let's face it: now that we have evidence that daggers of this nature existed in your favourite time period, do you really want to leave your kit without one? I know I wouldn't. |
You convince M'lady Melissa that I should go ahead and commission a custom piece, when our son is due in December (especially since I just bought not 1, but 2 Albions in the last few months), and I'll tell you how the project turns out.  
No, but seriously I wish it were in the stars for me right now, but with our first child on the way, it's something I have to put on the backburner. Hopefully by this time next year, she'll have forgotten about the Albions, and I can sneak such a piece past. 
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 13 Oct, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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I believe Craig Johnson is referring to Logan Thompson's book Daggers and Bayonets. The caption for that image (which also included a fragmentary dagger) is: quillon daggers from London, late 12th century onwards.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
Last edited by Chad Arnow on Sun 14 Oct, 2007 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Sun 14 Oct, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | I believe Craig Johnson is referring to Logan Thompson's book Daggers and Bayonets. The caption for that image (which also included a fragmentary dagger) is: quillon daggers from London, late 12th century onwards. |
Chad,
Do you know if the book gives any reason for revising the earlier estimate dating the dagger to the 14th century?
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sun 14 Oct, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | | Chad Arnow wrote: | | I believe Craig Johnson is referring to Logan Thompson's book Daggers and Bayonets. The caption for that image (which also included a fragmentary dagger) is: quillon daggers from London, late 12th century onwards. |
Chad,
Do you know if the book gives any reason for revising the earlier estimate dating the dagger to the 14th century? |
It doesn't. I'm not sure many general books like Thompson's would go into that kind of detail, though.
All it shows is the picture and caption in this case.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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