[Mrak E.Smith]

About Sharpe's 1796HC,I guess it's merely a symbol of his humble parentage that a tough,stout broadsword indicates,compare to the usual slender and graceful small swords carried by other contemporary "high-born"officers.

I must confess that I only watched the Sharpe Movies,not the novels,so if I'm wrong ,just point it out.

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Not to wander too far off topic, but Sharpe inherited the sword from his CO in the first book. His CO was mortally wounded and gave his sword to Sharpe. Prior to carrying the P1796 HC trooper’s sword, Sharpe carried P1796 LC saber variant popular with officers in the rifle regiments. IIRC, the officers viewed themselves and their units as elite, and they adopted certain light cavalry fashions (swords included) to demonstrate their uniqueness and set themselves apart from other infantry officers.

I cannot speak to whether or not Sharpe’s sword blade was of German manufacture—I don’t remember what Cornwell says about that. He does get confused at times about the pattern, and in at least one instance mentions its brass hilt. P1796 HC troopers swords did not have brass hilts.

Jonathan

(David C., feel free to correct me!)

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting stuff on the Sharpe books and movies. I only caught parts of the movies, and never read the books, but still caught the M1796 and wondered about it being so seemingly out of context.

As far as I know, there were no German blades on M1796 Heavy Cavalry troopers swords. I agree on no brass hilts on these either! I think there was a brass hilt on a Household Cavalry version of the officers sword though.....cant find my Robson at the moment , but Critchley will know

I think I'll wave the white flag on the Chinese provenance on this one! and move on to something easier, like finding Amelia Earharts plane The question is not helping my sleep pattern though.

All best regards,
Jim

[D Critchley]

[Jim McDougall]

Right on David! Thank you so much for confirming that. The 'ladder hilt' was the term I was looking for, and I do recall the attribution to Household Cavalry was speculative.
I wasn't sure about whether any German blades were ever found on the standard M1796, but know that I surely have never seen any.

Brians comment on the Kings German Legion brought interesting thoughts though, even though of course the reference was in a fictional account. It is interesting that no German blades appeared on the HC swords while as you have noted they clearly did on the LC (Runkel). I was wondering on that as it seems that on the Austrian M1769 there certainly must have been Solingen blades on many, so the blade type must have been available

I am unclear on Runkel, he was primarily an importer of blades from Germany correct? But the blades were unmarked and stamped with his.

Thanks very much David,
All best regards,
Jim

P.S. Do you have any thoughts on the Chinese markings?

[Jonathan Hopkins]

[Brian Nicholas]

I din't mean to take you off your quest to find out the reason why a 1796C wound up in the hands of Chinese Boxer.

I tend to like the running theory that it was either a trophy or had some sort of religious/supernatural connotation with the red markings. Someone's earlier comment about how zenophobic the boxers were, rules out the idea that some arms dealer sold a lot of, what at the time would have been consider old junk sabers, 1796s to the boxers.

All this discussion about the Sharpe novels has forced me to dust them off an start re-reading the series. I think Cornwell simply used the idea that Sharpe's sword was a German blade to make it convenient for his friendship with one of the KGL Officers and a couple of stirring battle scenes and rescue by the KGL. They were a formidible cavalry force with a solid reputation on the battle field. I forget whether it was Napoleon or Ney who said that the British were the best cavalry in the world and the worst led. With a few exceptions, the KGL being one, that was probably true. The anals of British military history are filled with glorious and suicidal cavalry charges and famous last stands.

Back on topic, the LC 1796 which I have in my collection has the following stamps on it:
WAR
with what looks like a TD underlined
then a capital W
then a capital D underlined
then G A S capitalized (my guess is that these are inspector initials)

If anyone out there can tell me a bit about the sabre I'd appreciate it. I am working on getting some photos uploaded, but my camera takes pics that are too big.

[D Critchley]

Brian, they sound like markings you would get on a Blucher 1811 rather than a British 1796 LC.
Do you have pics of the hilt and scabbard ?


Jim as to the chinese markings, no idea really, a number were taken out of the Armouries in the 1840s I believe to see if they could be cut down for naval use, but apart from that (failed) exercise they never saw service again.

That doesn't stop a merchant buying a batch of army surplus and selling them abroad though. The Tower was knee deep in them after Waterloo. Most of the LC swords went to the Yeomanry, but there were almost no HC Yeomanry so they were just put into storage.

David

[Brian Nicholas]

David Thanks for the reply. I am no computer guru, but i've managed to take a couple of pics and then photo shop them down to sizes that are allowed to be uploaded on the site.

I have pics of the hilt, however no pics as yet of the scabbard. The scabbard is steel with two rings and a plain drag and throat. It has been bent a couple of places and is rusted through near the drag.

As you can tell from the pics, the grip has been alterred or replaced at some time. However other than that, everything else is original and unalterred.

I realize this is not a pretty example, but nonetheless I am pleased to have it. It was my first sword purchase over 20 years ago. I found it at a yard sale in either Vermont or Upstate NY ( I went to college at Norwich University, a military college in Vermont) and paid only $45 for the saber. Considering I was either still in college or had just graduated $45 was lot o money to me then. The owner claimed it had always been in the family and belonged to an ansestor. I can just picture generations of kids attic hunting and playing soldier with the saber, which would explain the bends in the scabbard. I thought it to be a great deal at the time considering it's age, and recognized it as a nice piece of history from the area and the era.

Your Idea that it's a Blucher 1811 would certainly fit the location, as upstate NY saw a great deal of activity during the War of 1812.

Thanks for your input on this.
Brian

[D Critchley]

Yes that looks Prussian or may be Swedish, not English Brian.
There are subtle differences to the ears of the backpiece and the rear quillon. The langets are more square than shield shaped too.

Whether it is as early as 1811 I don't know, these swords in Prussia were used right up to WWI and in Sweden in the 1830s.

The article here may be of interest

http://www.swordsandpistols.co.uk/research/in...&aID=2

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for the responses guys!
Every so often I scan through earlier threads just to find interesting topics that have stalled, mostly because of my obsessive curiosity, but also because I think many of them deserve further research.

This one, posted by Shahril last February, came up in what promised to be an interesting thread on the British M1796 Heavy Cavalry sword.
The casual mention of these unusual markings on this particular M1796 in Chinese, and the note that it was captured from a 'Boxer' in China in 1900 by British (or Australian) troops was to me, astounding! and I desperately wanted to find out more if possible on this bizarre provenance.
Since my efforts to contact Shahril have been unsuccessful, I do very much appreciate the input from you guys in my 'quest' to resolve this in at least some degree.

Brian, I'm glad to see you inspired to revisit the Sharpe novels. I'm not much of a reader of fiction, but these seem like great reads, and it sounds as if Cornwell has added some of these unique twists just for the benefit of weapons historians like us! Frankly, those turns are what seem to give the character dimension, and it clearly does work.....now I need to find a bookstore!!

When I first began collecting, just as the earth cooled.....actually it was in the 60's... my first conquest was a beaten and pitted M1796 Heavy Cavalry ! I spent nearly a weeks pay on it, and thought it was Excaliber itself! It was a great step for me from the bayonets out of surplus store barrels I had begun with, and the beginning of a lifetime of empassioned study on the history of weapons. I still have that faithful old warrior, though so many others have come and gone, and my collecting days ended years ago. I never lost the admiration for the weathered and worn old weapons that have been spared the imposition of relentless overcleaning of exuberant collectors and ambitious dealers. To me, the wear and age on them was quite literally history itself, and deserved to remain intact.

David, thank you again for reconfirming on those brass 'ladder hilts'. I recall seeing those in the Tower years ago, before the Armouries moved to Leeds. I also recall reading on the short lived attempt to refurbish the 1796 HC's into naval swords. It's kind of funny, much the same thing happened with the American M1913 Patton swords. These were of course with the huge bowl type guard much like the British M1908, but in the U.S. these never saw combat, in fact nearly all of them ended up in armouries not many years later. Ironically, during the early years of WWII it seems that a number of these were cut down, to become a form of fighting knife intended for the navy. I think this was in a monograph written on the 1913 Patton. It just seemed an interesting coincidence, even though not directly related here.

Perhaps if Shahril ever notices this thread again, he might be able to share more on the provenance and maybe even photos of the Chinese characters. If they can be translated that would be extremely helpful.

Thanks again everyone for the great discussion on this!

All the best,
Jim

[Brian Nicholas]

Jim and David, thanks so much for your replies and insights. I very much found the article forwarded to be interesting, as a mtter of fact I have bookmarkjed the sight and envision many sleepless hours purusing it.

Like the 1796 captured from boxers, my former LC 1796 now Blucher 1811, has become a mystery in and of itself. Presuming the the man I purchased it from was not embellishing to drive up the price, How did an 1811 Blucher arrive in upstate NY or Vermont?

My first thought is that the fledgling US Army, in need of large quantities of weapons for the war of 1812 and later expansions, or possibly as late as the war with Mexico, turned to Prussian bladesmiths to fulfill that need. I have seen this saber on pictures and portraits dating from those 2 periods.

An indication of this theory is the marking which begins with WAR, which could stand for the WAR Department? Given that the first word is in English, not German leads me to believe this was made from the outset for American military use.

This is followed by the small capitalized and underlined TD, (given the nomenclature used in the article David provided, which identified the regiments to which the sabers were destined), perhaps this stands stands for Tenth Dragoons. If my military history lessons from ages ago have not fled me entirely, the US relied heavily and almost solely ,early on, with Dragoon Regiments and some Lancer regiments. We did not adopt the European and British custom of having Light Cav, Heavy Cav, Dragoons, Hussars, Lancers, Cuirassiers, Chausseurs etc... From there we went directly to calling everything mounted Cavalry Regiments, which were armed with saber pistol and carbine (except a couple of Lancer Regiments which were mainly for parades).

The next marking of a large capital W, could stand for West, as we divided armies into eastern and western both pre and post civil war.

With the English language markings, the extreme age that the saber and scabbard show,and my above reasoning (which may be totall flawed), I still think the saber predates 1840. Perhaps one of our armories even copied the Blucher for US army use. Also the 1840 date is significant because the US Cavalry regiments began using the 1840 Pattern Cavalry saber ,"the wrist breaker" ( I have one of those in my collection as well). My history lessons again tell me that the US Army switched designs mainly because the Blucher or LC 1796 was unsuited to the type of warfare in which we were engaged. With the defeat of the Mexican forces and the peace we enjoyed with our British/Canadian neighbors to the north, the American army was not faced with a European modeled army. Our fights with the Native American Indian tribes were charachterized more by the charge and less by the general melee, primarily because the Native horsemen used spears and mounted archers and lacked a mounted melee style weapon. And their tactics were to avoid a general melee. We changed the cavalry weapon to suit the tactices used by the Indian Tribes.

I guess my reasoning here could be clouded by the fact that this was my first saber purchase. Like Jim the $45 was a lot of money to me and my imagination placed this sword at all of our famous battles pre-civil war, from Fort MacHenry, to Queenston Heights, to New Orleans during the War of 1812 then on to scale the ramparts of Chapultapec with Major General Truman Bishop Ransom, during the War with Mexico. Ultimatley, no matter what it's provenence, I will always treasure this saber and it will always stay in my collection (unless of course someone offered me a million dollars).

Jim's comments about barrles full of swords recalls to mind an army surplus place nearby our campus in Vermont. The name escapes me now, but he went on to become a major , national seller of surplus military weapons from rifles to edged weapons. I bought my first pistol from him as well. But since this is a site dedicated to swords, I remember him having a couple of barrels full of 1913 Patton Sabers for sale at about $25 a piece. I always wanted one, but being a starving college student I had the choice of saving up and buying the revolver I wanted or getting a sword. I should have went back for the Patton Saber. While I really like my Ruger Security Six, and it served me faithfully for a number of years as my duty carry weapon, I have never fulfilled my wish to acquire a Patton Saber. That $25 barrel sword is now a $1,000 collector's piece. I would dearly love to find an original Patton that was reasonably priced. I am even tempted to buy the repro which is available on the totalnavy.com website.

To me its one of the classic swords of American history. I have my 1811 Blucher (formerly my 1796 LC), an 1840 wristbreaker, a C. Roby , W. Chelmsford, 1863 NCO sword and a US Cavalry Saber, dated 1906 from A.S. Co.,and now all I need to sort of cover the beginning and the end is a 1913 Patton.

Well sorry to be so long winded. Get yourself to a bookstore and start reading the Sharpe novels, you won't be disappointed (as long as you don't get too fussy over some of the weapon's details). Cornwell does a great job with the characters and the action scenes. Plus who doesn't love a good story about an underdog trying to come out on top when everyone and everything is against him.

I look forward to your next posts, which may clarify my theory about how a Blucher 1811 ended up in New England.

Brian

[Shahril Dzulkifli]

Well Jim, I don't have an idea where did the Boxers in China get this sword. No one knows how the 1796 British Heavy Cavalry Sword can fall into their hands and then use them in combat.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Brian,
Thank you so much for a beautifully written and well thought out post!! and believe me, in my opinion fascinating to read. Your deductions are well presented and to me sound very plausible, and I think would be an outstanding article for "Man at Arms" magazine. In fact, that publication I would suggest for answers to some of the questions you have placed.

It is quite true that in the opening of the 19th century the U.S. military was in need of weapons, and clearly as the War of 1812 approached, the British sabres were not potential for supply. There were a few makers for weapons, and if memory serves, the Virginia Manufactory, Starr, and Rose were the primary suppliers. Obviously there were heavy trade and immigration sources in which German sabres might have entered U.S. supplies, and though I cannot offer any sound confirmation of what you are suggesting regarding the markings on your Blucher sabel , it sure does sound quite plausible.

German suppliers were very much key sources for military sword blades, and if not mistaken, by the time the M1840 'wristbreaker' (as you well note) was proposed, the first prototypes were from Solingen suppliers. I think either Kirschbaum or Weyersberg were the ones mentioned. It was then that Ames, picked up the contract. It seemed surprising that they didn't initially as theyh already had the M1833 in production. Actually the Virginia Manufactory and to some degree the Starr sabres did emulate the British and German sabres, however by the time of the 1833, that was modelled directly from the British M1821 Light Cavalry sabre. The M1840 was taken from the French dragoon sabre.
During the Mexican-American War, many of the Mexican officers swords, actually virtually most of them, carried Solingen made 'Spanish dragoon' type blades. I have seen slightly later Mexican 'cutlasses' with Solingen made blades and Mexican armoury stamps.

I do not have many of the references which I wish were at hand right now, so please excuse my rather limited note of reference specifics. There are a number of fantastic articles in "Man at Arms" magazine on most of the swords you have noted, and the examples you list in the impressive grouping of swords in your collection. I believe one of Custer's swords was a Roby (I did some research on one of his swords which I finally located in the museum at Little Big Horn, the one from a Confederate officer with Mexican blade as described).
On the Bluchersabel, some time ago Gerhard Seifert, who was one of the key figures in the German arms journal, did a thorough study on these swords, and again I do not have the reference, but it was specifically on that sword, it may have been simply of course der Bluchersabel. Its in German, but still good reference. The E. Wagner, "Cut and Thrust Weapons" also will some some good detail.
I know you are probably more than familiar with these, but just added for other readers if so inclined.


Good points on the combat tactics with Native American tribes, and the weapons employed. While the sword did have some use in the earlier part of the 'Indian Wars' period, it was quickly reduced to more of an encumbrance that was of little use in warfare. There are of course numerous instances where it was used, but by the time of the Little Big Horn they were left behind. I would point out that one of the reasons the 'wristbreaker' term became popular was because these heavy sabres were indeed not suited for the type of use the limited training dictated, and poor training led to the difficulty experienced in wielding them. One key problem with the swords also was usually lack of maintainance, and these were seldom sharpened. One reference I once read noted the limited wounds in the Civil War caused by swords, and of those, most were blunt trauma and heavy bruising. Of course there were exceptions, but then, as in the Indian War times, emphasis was on firearms.

As for the Patton, despite the fact these never saw combat, they are a fascinating weapon. I saw one at the Patton Museum in Scirocco, out in the California Mojave, and just had to have one! They can still be found, but do seem like everything else to be getting expensive.

I'm sending you a PM, as I better cut my end of the epic short, I hold the record for long winded!!

Shahril, thank you for responding, and for the interesting post you placed on this! Now see what you started!!
Yours sound like a really fascinating sword though, and it would be great if you could post pictures of those markings.

All best regards,
Jim

[Brian Nicholas]

Jim thanks for taking the time out to respond as you have. I am an amateur collector and armchair historian at best, so I always crave learning somehing new. In the 3 days I've been a member on this site, I've learned a great deal from you and David and the others who post here, and I thank you all very much for that. I've always subscribed to the ancinet adage that no day is wasted if you learn something new. Shahrahil is to be commended for starting what for me has been a fascinating discussion thread. It's amazing how something like a Brititsh LC 1796 in the hands of a Chinese Boxer, half a world away and several lifetimes ago, has promted such great discussions on topics ranging from German Sabers, fictional Rifle regiment officers to Native American Indian tactics. I guess that is what makes studying history so enjoyable you never know just where history is going to lead you. Without his intitial comment I would have remained blissfully ignorant as to the true description of my first saber. It's too bad we can't come up with some solid facts for him about his Boxer LC1796.

But when you don;t have solid written records to go on, much of the study of history is based on working theories, supposition and deductive reasoning. Given the superstitious nature of the Boxers, the working theory that this weapon was taken from a westerner that the boxer killed and then the markings were applied and the saber were used to appease a "wrestless spirit" does not seem too far fetched. With zealots like the Boxers or the Mahdists in the Sudan, logic may not be the best approach to solving ths puzzle. I agree with you guys that seeing the markings and having someone fluent in the written language of the time period would certainly be a major help.

To segue from LC1796 to 1840 US NCO swords, that's was an intersting fact about Custer carrying a C. Roby saber. Ames seems to get all the credit for making all the swords and sabers used during the civil war and there is not a lot of information out there about other manufacturers like C. Roby. I have always sort of liked the fact that my 1840 NCO sword was not the runof the mill Ames. Where they/are they a well respected manufacturer? I know that some of the civil war manufacturers had less than savory reputations due to shoddy workmanship to increase profitt. Anything anyone can tell me about C. Roby, or ,like Jim, point me in the direction for research would be greatly appreciated.

As for American cavalry tactics we seem to have always used our cavalry more as mounted light infantry, rather than the tradiitional role cavalry played in Europe. Again armies tend to adopt tacics based on the "enemies" they fight and the terrain they have to cover. Even during the Civil War, Cavalry was used mainly for raiding supply lines, ala Nathan bedford Forrest or Moseby, or as mounted infantry as in Buford's holding action on the 1st day of Gettysburg. Our cavalry regiments had to cover vast amounts of territory and infantry would never have been successful. Little Big Horn is prime example of that. the native tribes moved quickly,(their old women and children moved faster than an infantry regiment) and easily outpaced infantry and Had Custer waited for General Terry's infantry and artillery train, the battle of Ltitle Big Horn would have been completely different. Custer's quest for eternal glory managed to gain him, and sadly a large portion of the 7th cavalry, the eternal fame he wanted

Territorial restraints also play a major role in how cavalry develops throughout the world. Australia is another prime example of cavalry being more mounted infantry and the ANZAC Lighthorse regiments are shining examples. The British even figured it out in Africa, relying heavily on Lighthorse regiments during the Boer wars. The Boers fought with similar tactics as our Native Tribes, and the British learned that if they were to succeed they needed to adopt the same tactics. Traditional Cavalry had always worked well for the British when fighting the Zulus and other tribes, mainly because the Zulu tactics relied heavily on massed formations of men overwhelming their opposition. Which makes for the perfect setting for a classic cavalry charge, nothng can break up a massed infantry charge quicker than a counter charge by cavalry and/or lancers. Unfortunatley the Zulus had never heard about the Infantry Square which the British used to perfection. Again I fall back on the quote from either Napoleon or Ney that says that British troops are the best in the world but the most poorely led (with some very ntoable exceptions of course as Napoleon and his marshals found out when they met Arthur Welsley). Almost all of Britain's glorious last stands in their colonial wars were the direct result of genealship based on who's son and heir you were. Imagine what the world would be like today if the British army followed the example of the Royal Navy.

Well, Like you Jim, I get a bit long winded, but I am truly enjoying these discussions with all of you learned men. I wish I had found this site years ago.

Best Regards

Brian

[Glen A Cleeton]

Mike McWatters page on American manufacture during the ACW has a good paragraph on Roby. Not mentioned there and lost in source at the moment is that Roby was yet another that , although with foundry capability was working with outsourced blades from abroad and entirely foreign cutlered swords for some models.
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/swordcollector/marks/page1.html

It may seem that Ames is perhaps the best known early manufacturer in America but as soon as one starts looking at even dealer listings, it be comes readily apparent there is a whole lot more to the story. Pages like Mike's are quite helpful
for the basics. Several dealers have what amounts to a flash card deck for easy profile recognition. Books, too numerous to list are the foundations for a great many of the articles and the continuing evolution of information exchange. the Collins nco swords, for instance, are a lot less common than Roby examples but also still surface with some regularity.

It is easy tp build a story around a few indicators and take it pretty much wherever one wishes. Without good solid histories, many stories of provenance for a given example are no more than idle speculation. Dealers are all too happy to build a platform for such speculation. A phrase as innocent or convincing as "the sword belonged to an ancestor" allows those wishing to write fiction take the story wherever they want. The antique sword trade is hardly new and swords have come into the states from abroad in any number of circumstances. I'll not deny the romantic appeal of researching old swords, I've some myself.

If the marking's associated with Brian's sword in this thread were as speculated, I find it difficult to believe other examples, or other reference to such markin gs would be entirely elusive. I don't want to entirely dismiss the possibility of such but find one case of speculative analysis a pretty slim base.

Also to note that at least one case exists for swords continuing to be shipped from England during the conflict of 1812. This related over the course of four pages in Mowbray's eagle pommel title and involving a large New York distributor (Upson borthers) and Osborn&Gunby. I could speculatively state that I find it hard to believe it was the only instance. Richard Bezdek has a title of the swords and swordmakers in 1812 and that is one still on my list. . it may be a worthy addition to any that study swords in America of the period.

Cheers

GC

[Jim McDougall]

Brian, thank you so much for the kind words! I can only say that for an 'armchair historian' you seem to have amazing command of these topics, and your writing technique reads 100% better than most of the very dry writing I have often plodded through on them!
I think we are on exactly the same page in the very exciting, and often rewarding practice of actually researching individual weapons to learn history from them. As you have agreed, in doing so the weapon actually becomes a vehicle for learning and experiencing history, rather than a worn, forgotten relic of it. Often those curious about my passion for the study of these weapons, would hold a dark pitted sword that was a current project and say wistfully, if this sword could only talk!
My response was always, "it can! if you just ask the right questions and listen to the answers".
It is very much as I have said, 'historic weapons forensics', and as Glen has noted, admittedly a very romanticized pursuit, but one that I have thankfully enjoyed most of my life.

In that very light comparing the research on individual weapons, or often the development of certain weapon forms with many ethnographic examples, I have 'open cases' that have been active for nearly decades. Every so often in the constant perusal of old resources that turn up every so often,typically in interchange with others with similar interests as done here, some new clue will appear and reveal new perspective, sometimes even shocking news. While the fantastic book by Andrew Mowbray is certainly not an 'old' source, the information in it that England was supplying swords to America even at the time of the War of 1812 is stunning, and clearly little known.Someone studying an entirely different weapon type than eaglehead swords may not include that title in research, but here is a profoundly applicable bit of information.

Glen is very correct in the astute observation that crafty dealers and selling collectors are all too willing to create very compelling stories to go with the weapons they are hawking, often very deceptively 'alluding' to some historic connection without directly claiming it. They simply allow the prospective buyer to talk himself into the deal, thinking that he has outsmarted the seller by 'knowing something he didn't' or 'he didnt know what he had'.

The old ploy of 'I inherited this' or 'has been in the family for years', always begs the question, 'then why are you selling it?
Personally I think money can be found in many resources without giving up irreplaceable heirlooms, but of course it is only my opinion.

The material suggested by Glen is indeed very informative, and highly recommended. I would also very highly recommend "Man at Arms" magazine, which does have over the years many extremely important articles on American swords, and has remained a vital resource for weapons Americana for nearly 30 years. I would recommend also "The American Sword" by Harold Peterson as well.

All best regards,
Jim

[Brian Nicholas]

Glen and Jim,

Thanks again for your replies. I am continually amazed at how helpful everyone is on this board. I've been on other boards of a historical nature have run across a great many posters who prefer be-littling others for there lack of knowledge rather than helping them to learn more. Which is the reason most of us come to these boards. Any student of history, no matter how broad or how refined the area of interest, is always looking to add to that repository of information contained in his/her brain.

Glen I thank you for the link to the Mike MacWatters page. I found it both helpful and informative. Helpful in the sense that it narrowed down some facts about my 1840 C. Roby NCO sword. It's nice to know that Roby was a well respected producer.

I'm not quite as surprised as Jim was to learn that British blades continued to be imported into the US during the War of 1812. Afterall, cross channel trading between the British and the French went on throughout the Napoleonic Wars. The fashion, especially ladies dresses, wine and brandy trading industries continued to thrive throughout the wars and I'm sure there were many others. British warships would buy up French fishermen's catches while they were blockading French ports. Arms dealers typically concern themselves with only one thind, huge profits. Things like which side you're supposed to be on during a war are of no consequence to them.

Arms dealers and antique weapons dealers seem to share that same quality. Both of you rightly point out that any tactic by the dealer is fair game whether it is fabricating provenence, offering a bait line, or, with some elbow grease, passing off a cheap repro as the genuine article. In another discussion topic on this board, I was following a reputed 1760 Pattern British Officers sword and scabbard that was highly decorated and in near mint condition and was being live auctioned on Ebay. the sword went for $2,100 in the end. the sad part is that the person with wich I was having this discussion pointed out that while the blade was indeed a nice work of art of ineterminate value because the photos lacked any detail of makers marks, proofs etc.. The hilt on the other hand was an 1840s French style. So the 1760 british sword was a fake and some individual got taken for ride by the dealer.

Glen I'm afraid you mistook the purpose of my speculation as to the history of my 1811 Blucher. I am not a dealer and am not looking to sell the sword to anyone. I mearly posited those ideas as avenues for my own exploration into the history of that sword. Avenues that have all been dead ends so far I might add. All research needs to begin with some sort of theory. I think the person I purchased it from was genuine. I bought it at a yard sale and not from an antiques dealer. Given the low price of the sword this family did not regard it as an heirloom, but rather just more stuff that had accumulated in the attic. The attics of New England and the early eastern states are filled with treasures going back as far as the revolution. To some these represent priceless family heirlooms never to be sold and to others (mainly those who thought history was a boring subject in high school) they are just so much clutter destined for a yardsale.

I grew up in Maine and remember finding an old book of letters in our attic,written by one of the States prominent politicians, concerning the Civil War. The book intrigued me even then, I was no more than 13 at the time, because our local library was named for this person. So I began exploring the book, turning first to our local librarian. With her help, we came to find out that there were only 10 copies of the book known to exist in public collections. Our local library did not even have a copy. Even at that age I knew that such a book was a treasure, but I also knew that I would never be able to take care of it the way old books should be taken care of and that it would prove far more useful as reference book in a public library than on my bookshelf. So without any encouragement from any "grownups" I donated the book to our local library. To me it was a valuable treasure but to the people that owned the house prior it was just an old book consigned to the attic.

Getting back to my Blucher, so far I've found nothing to back up my theories or anyhting at all for that matter. But like you point out about the study of Eagle Heads leading to other information. My "historical forensics" on the Blucher lead me to another web based site called www.oldswords.com. After paying a nominal $10 membership fee that goes toward upkeep of the site, I gained access to the site's database and search engine. While I could find nothing about my Blucher I did find an almost exact mate to what I thought was my 1854 or 1872 pattern British Officer's Sword that now turns out to be an 1822 Pattern Field Grade Officers Sword made by Garden and Son of 200 Piccadilly, London circa 1840. the sword I have is in near perfect condition except for some slight wearing of the etching on the raised part of the blade, which just so happened to carry the first few letters of the sword makers name By using the search engine I was able to find out the maker's name and years of operation, find some other examples from that maker and completely identify a sword I only had vague knowledge of before. On another happy note that site search engine has also given me a great many leads on an American Eagle Head Pommel Sword, whose blade is so worn and pitted, that was another complete mystery to me and that I can now tentatively identify, based on forensics, as having been made by W.H. Horstmann and Son of Philadelphia sometime between 1816 and 1840, using an imported German blade that bears a a great deal in common with other blades made by the German company Weyersburg Kirschbaum. So I guess not all of the avenues of speculation turn out to be dead ends they just take you to a different destination. And believe me, I am thrilled right down to my toenails at where this avenue has taken me. So maybe that rural gentleman at a yardsale 20 years ago was spinning a tale by saying it belonged to an ansestor, but I'm glad he told the tale because it has taken me down some historical roads I never would have travelled otherwise and allowed to make the aquaintance of some fine gentlemen, like Jim, David and Glen, tht I would never have otherwise met. And we musn't forget a man named Shahrahil from malaysia who's question about a British LC 1796 that was found to be in possesion of a Chinese Boxer got all of this started.

Well I guess I've taken up enough of your valuable time for now. Thanks again Glen and Jim and I look forward to seeing what gets posted next.

Brian

Well thats all for now

[Jim McDougall]

Right on Brian!!! Well said
I'm very much with you, it is great to have solid discussion which is beneficial actually to all participating as well as readers who view the threads on the forum. This is what its all about, and its great to learn. For me, I get to learn from researching the topics I write on, and the responding posts from those with advanced knowledge on the topic.

You're right on the really not so surprising trade activity continuing during wars regardless of embargos and patriotic fervor, after all profiteering has pretty much always reigned supreme. I guess mostly it depends on the perspective from which the historical source being considered is presented, and these elements are typically not noted in general accounts.

I very much commend you for the admirable manner in which you handled finding that valuable book. That kind of integrity is what everyone who loves history wishes would prevail with such instances. I recall many years ago doing very in depth research on schooners and shipping on the Kennebec River, and handling some very old books concerning history and geneological records. The history there is amazing and adds entire new dimension to the colonial history of our country. During the research I was doing on a particular schooner, actually the Hesperus, I was doing my own geneology and discovered one grandfather actually was from a town just a few miles from the location of the building place of the ship!

Now we're really a long way from the M1796 with Chinese markings!!! but I would point out that the Maine ships travelled worldwide in thier trade, and there was a great deal of material brought back from the China trade!

With that I'll place the British HC sword in the unsolved, case pending file, and join in thanking everybody here for a great discussion and fascinating thread.

All the best,
Jim

[Konstantin Rebek]

Hello

I am searching the internet for technical data (as precise as possible inclouding POB) of the 1796 light cavalry sabre.
Can someone help me out? :-)