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Allen W





Joined: 02 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 24 Mar, 2004 7:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Elling. I only have English translations of Njall's, Egil's, Grettir's, Gisli's, and Hord's sagas which is just as well since I'm only fluent in English. In these the only phrases used are halberd and perhaps heptisax(I think thats how its spelled though its been a while since I last read Grettir) of which I've encountered no other reference. Do you know of any surviving examples?
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Fri 26 Mar, 2004 7:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Now, I have not looked very thoroughly through this earier, but according to the summary of weapon lore presented by our sister society in Oslo there are a number of actual names and deffinitions.

"Geir" is a throwing spear, available in a number of varieties with different names.

"Spjot" is a stabbing spear,

"Hoggspjot" is a chopping spear (Hogg=chopp). Is would probably be shaped and hafted much like a conventional spear, but with a broad, sharp head. The mentioned subcategories are
Kesja, wich had a heavy, broad head, on a pole of variable lenght. It is later, in the 1550's reffered to as "Big, strong spear" or "Biörnesior", or Bear spear.
Bryntvari: This was a short shafted spear, tipped with a narrow spike, broading out to a chopping blade similar to the Kesja. "Bryn-" reffers to Maile, so this was a anti-armour weapon.
Atgeir is a alternate name for a chopping spear. Some of these where so short that they could be carried in the belt.

I do not know of any surviving Hoggspjot, but I have seen some really long, broad spearheads that have been excevated. (maybe 40 cm long, and about 10 cm wide). I would guess that these could qualify as chopping spears, but that the dedicated ones would have a shorter and heavyer head.

Yours
Elling
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Joachim Nilsson





Joined: 29 Sep 2003

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PostPosted: Fri 26 Mar, 2004 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David R. Glier wrote:
FASCINATING weapon. A shortsword on a six foot pole...

If you don't mind, I have a load of questions for you...
How far down the haft does it ballance? Does it have a butt-cap or spike? What's the diameter of the haft? Are the langets set into the shaft, or do they sit on top of it? Are the langets nailed into the haft, or do rivets pass through it? Can you tell how deep the tang extends into the haft?


No butt-cap or spike. The languets sit on top of the haft and are nailed into it. The point of balance is (roughly) 16 5/16 inches from the cross. The haft itself is of a slightly oval section and measures roughly 1 11/16 inches x 1 3/16 inches. The tang extends some 6 8/16 inches into the haft.
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Jeanry Chandler




Location: New Orleans, Louisiana
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Posts: 62

PostPosted: Mon 29 Mar, 2004 1:32 pm    Post subject: Staff-spear... Hodjspjott?         Reply with quote

Joachim Nilsson wrote:
Allen W wrote:
Do you know the dates over which these range or if there is any relation to the mysterious halberd mentioned in the Icelandic sagas?


If I'm not mistaken most of the hitherto found remains of staffswords have been dated to (roughly) around the first half of the 16th century. But I'm going to have to search for more literature on the subject. Although I don't know if there's been that much that's been said on the staffsword.


Joachim, congratulations on the fine weapon.

I think there may very well be an earlier ancestry of this weapon. We were discussing in another thread how "peasants" in some parts of Europe maintianed very ancient militia practices going back to pre-Roman times. This was definately true for example in Switzerland. Also in places like Flanders, Bohemia, and I suspect, Sweeden, where peasants habitually went about armed. In fact if I remember correctly, isn't Sweeden one of those places where peasants were actually required by law to keep arms?

The "halberd" of the Icelandic sagas is something I have been trying to pin down for a long time. Halberds, of the medieval kind used in Switzerland and eventually across Europe, were supposedly invented in the 13th century. The descriptions I have read of the Viking "halberd" sound nothing like a true halberd either (i.e an axe on a spear shaft with a back spike and spear-head) There are also many references to a "hewing-spear", which has been translated as something like "Hoddgspjott" (please forgive the spelling)

One reference in Egil's Saga is typical of the descriptions of this weapon:


"Here is how Thorolf was equipped: he had a broad, thick shield, a tough helmet on his head, and a sword called Long about his waist, a big, fine weapon. The thrusting-spear he carried had a blade two ells long with four edges tapering to a point at one end, broad at the other. The socket wazs long and wide, the shaft no taller than might be grasped at the socket by the hand, but wonderfully thick. An iron spike was in the socket and the whole of t hat was bound with iron. It was the kind of spear called a halberd."


All in all, somewhat contradictory, but interestingly similar to your weapon, IMHO. I would love to read the literal translations of some of those terms, like the specific word for "hablerd" and "Thrusting spear". And what do they mean by four edges? A diamond shaped blade perhaps?

In the text though, there are frequent references to these weapons hewing into opponents like swords, as well as thrusting and even being thrown.

Jeanry Chandler

"A strong people do not ned a strong leader."

Emiliano Zapata


Last edited by Jeanry Chandler on Tue 30 Mar, 2004 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jeanry Chandler




Location: New Orleans, Louisiana
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Mar, 2004 2:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
My friend Joe Leung happens to have the antique of such Yari and here're some photos. It's said to be the best polearms invented in Japan and is believed to be quite invincible in 1 on 1 combat by the Japanese martial artists of the day...

http://lancelot.servehttp.com/misc/joedao/p2010265.jpg
http://lancelot.servehttp.com/misc/joedao/p2010267.jpg
http://lancelot.servehttp.com/misc/joedao/p2010268.jpg


Thats because Japanese weapons panoply doesn't normally include a decent sized shield. To my experience that is the best way to deal with any pole arm.

Jeanry Chandler

"A strong people do not ned a strong leader."

Emiliano Zapata
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Mar, 2004 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Congratulations on the fine polearm Joachim. I really like it. It's nice to see Peter do something with a bit of a common man-rustic appearance. Neat.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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David R. Glier





Joined: 01 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Mon 29 Mar, 2004 6:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks much, sir. It'll give me a point to shoot for in my own work.


In regards to viking "halbards": Having seen the recend Cold Steel DVD on the performance of their boar spear as a slashing weapon, I've suddenly gained new respect for the capabilites of a plain old broad-bladed spear! I often wonder if spears were used this way in period.
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Derek Wassom




Location: Fribourg, Switzerland
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Mar, 2004 7:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eek! Pitt Bull, that is AMAZING! I'm in love here. You are going to have to let me play with that sucker next time I make it down there. Cool
Regards,
Derek Wassom
Luegisland Scholar
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Joachim Nilsson





Joined: 29 Sep 2003

Posts: 510

PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2004 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Staff-spear... Hodjspjott?         Reply with quote

Jeanry Chandler wrote:

Joachim, congratulations on the fine weapon.

I think there may very well be an earlier ancestry of this weapon. We were discussing in another thread how "peasants" in some parts of Europe maintianed very ancient militia practices going back to pre-Roman times. This was definately true for example in Switzerland. Also in places like Flanders, Bohemia, and I suspect, Sweeden, where peasants habitually went about armed. In fact if I remember correctly, isn't Sweeden one of those places where peasants were actually required by law to keep arms?


Thanks Big Grin And: Yes, they were. What kinds of armaments they were required to keep depended on which law they lived under. Got a few examples here:

Quote:

Landscapelaw
Hälsingelagen: Arrows, bow, sword or axe.
Södermannalagen: Arrows, bow, spear, sword.
Östgötalagen: Sword.
Söderköpingsrätten: Sword.
Jyllandslagen: (Arrows, bow), spear, sword.
Frostatingslagen: Arrows, bow, spear, sword or axe.
Gulatingslagen: Arrows, bow, spear, sword or axe.
Magnus Lagabötes
landslag
: Spear, sword or axe.

-Source: Långfredagsslaget –En Arkeologisk Historia; redaktör Bengt Syse, s. 55. (The Good Friday Battle -An Archaeological History; editor Bengt Syse, page 55)

Quote:
The "halberd" of the Icelandic sagas is something I have been trying to pin down for a long time. Halberds, of the medieval kind used in Switzerland and eventually across Europe, were supposedly invented in the 13th century. The descriptions I have read of the Viking "halberd" sound nothing like a true halberd either (i.e an axe on a spear shaft with a back spike and spear-head) There are also many references to a "hewing-spear", which has been translated as something like "Hoddgspjott" (please forgive the spelling)

One reference in Egil's Saga is typical of the descriptions of this weapon:


"Here is how Thorolf was equipped: he had a broad, thick shield, a tough helmet on his head, and a sword called Long about his waist, a big, fine weapon. The thrusting-spear he carried had a blade two ells long with four edges tapering to a point at one end, broad at the other. The socket wazs long and wide, the shaft no taller than might be grasped at the socket by the hand, but wonderfully thick. An iron spike was in the socket and the whole of t hat was bound with iron. It was the kind of spear called a halberd."


All in all, somewhat contradictory, but interestingly similar to your weapon, IMHO. I would love to read the literal translations of some of those terms, like the specific word for "hablerd" and "Thrusting spear". And what do they mean by four edges? A diamond shaped blade perhaps?

In the text though, there are frequent references to these weapons hewing into opponents like swords, as well as thrusting and even being thrown.

Jeanry Chandler


Provide me with some original passages or links to where material can be found and I'll do my best to help you with literal translations.

Regards,
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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Wed 07 Apr, 2004 5:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Derek Wassom wrote:
Eek! Pitt Bull, that is AMAZING! I'm in love here. You are going to have to let me play with that sucker next time I make it down there. Cool


Thanks Derek! Big Grin "She" is a beauty, isn't "she"? And yeah, sure you can play around with "her" if you make it to Sweden again. Happy
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Jeanry Chandler




Location: New Orleans, Louisiana
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Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sun 18 Apr, 2004 1:50 am    Post subject: Re: Staff-spear... Hodjspjott?         Reply with quote

Joachim Nilsson wrote:


Thanks Big Grin And: Yes, they were. What kinds of armaments they were required to keep depended on which law they lived under. Got a few examples here:

Quote:

Landscapelaw
Hälsingelagen: Arrows, bow, sword or axe.
Södermannalagen: Arrows, bow, spear, sword.
Östgötalagen: Sword.
Söderköpingsrätten: Sword.
Jyllandslagen: (Arrows, bow), spear, sword.
Frostatingslagen: Arrows, bow, spear, sword or axe.
Gulatingslagen: Arrows, bow, spear, sword or axe.
Magnus Lagabötes
landslag
: Spear, sword or axe.

-Source: Långfredagsslaget –En Arkeologisk Historia; redaktör Bengt Syse, s. 55. (The Good Friday Battle -An Archaeological History; editor Bengt Syse, page 55)


Thanks, this is fascinating! Really interesting information. Especially how many districts (?) mandate being armed with bows. There is some evidence the infamous "english" longbow actually derives from Scandinavia, though I have never read much of it being used with great military significance there... perhaps it's use was confined to certain areas?

Quote:

Provide me with some original passages or links to where material can be found and I'll do my best to help you with literal translations.
Regards,


Ah, I was hoping you would know where to find that! I guess I'm being lazy. I will see what I can do. I found Seamus Heaneys translation of Beowulf, with the translation printed across from the original text, very informative ...


JR

"A strong people do not ned a strong leader."

Emiliano Zapata
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Geoff Wood




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Sun 18 Apr, 2004 2:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

.................There is some evidence the infamous "english" longbow actually derives from Scandinavia,...............

Would that have been by way of Wales perhaps?
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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Sun 18 Apr, 2004 4:02 am    Post subject: Re: Staff-spear... Hodjspjott?         Reply with quote

Jeanry Chandler wrote:



Thanks, this is fascinating! Really interesting information. Especially how many districts (?) mandate being armed with bows. There is some evidence the infamous "english" longbow actually derives from Scandinavia, though I have never read much of it being used with great military significance there... perhaps it's use was confined to certain areas?


Yes, I've come across information concering that issue too. However it's a somewhat controversial issue, often a highly debated one to boot too, and I'm not really currently up to date on the research concerning the longbow as being of Scandinavian origin. There are, however, lots and lots of conflicting sources on the subject, and there's a possibility that they bow (or bows) referred to here might be somewhat smaller bows that could more easily also have been used in hunting by the peasants. What's almost even more interesting though is the frequent occurence (among the different districts) that mandate the sword as a prerequisite among the peasants.

Quote:
Ah, I was hoping you would know where to find that! I guess I'm being lazy. I will see what I can do. I found Seamus Heaneys translation of Beowulf, with the translation printed across from the original text, very informative ...


Hmm... Yeah, I was being somewhat lazy too. Big Grin Mostly because my current research is being conducted on a personal need-to-know, or "gotta-know", basis where I check up on material that's directly related to my current training.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Sun 18 Apr, 2004 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The norwegian Leidang (levy) divided the country into Skipreider, areas that where responsible for providing a ship, with provisions and a armed crew, in case of war. The king had the authority to call out the Leidang in deffence of the country, but it was also used offensively on some occations, agains Denmark, Sweeden and Scotland.

The men paid of their own equipment, as acording to their level of income.

As according to Magnus Lagabøter's Law, of 1274.
The lowest level of income should own a shield, spear, and hand weapon(axe or sword) (up to 6 marks)
The next level (Up to 12 marks) should in adition have a helmet.
At 18 marks you should have a gambeson or mail.

Scandinavia in general, and norway in particullar had a weak nobility compared to the continent, and the milita forces where essential to warfare.


I have been trying to find a norwegian translation of Egils saga on the net, but only found the untranslated islandic version.
http://www.snerpa.is/net/isl/egils.htm

I would guess that the word used is Atgeir, but i do not know.


Yours
Elling
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Travis Canaday




Location: Overland Park, Kansas
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Dec, 2005 10:12 pm    Post subject: Peter Johnsson "hafted sword/staffsword"         Reply with quote

I was reading this topic earlier today. Then later tonight I recieved a book called Pieter Bruegel by Philippe and Françoise Roberts-Jones. On page 95 there is a close up of the painting Dulle Griet or Mad Meg that clearly depicts this staffsword. If you look at a small print of the painting, it might be hard to see. But in the lower right-hand of the painting, there is a group of armoured men with various pikes; among them is this swordstaff, with it's wide S-shaped guard.

Perhaps this weapon was used throughout northern Europe.

I thought it was funny to read about this thing for the first time tonight, and then I get this book and one of the first pages I flip to, shows this swordstaff. I just thought I would share.

Travis

Travis
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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Sun 25 Dec, 2005 5:57 am    Post subject: Re: Peter Johnsson "hafted sword/staffsword"         Reply with quote

Travis Canaday wrote:
I was reading this topic earlier today. Then later tonight I recieved a book called Pieter Bruegel by Philippe and Françoise Roberts-Jones. On page 95 there is a close up of the painting Dulle Griet or Mad Meg that clearly depicts this staffsword. If you look at a small print of the painting, it might be hard to see. But in the lower right-hand of the painting, there is a group of armoured men with various pikes; among them is this swordstaff, with it's wide S-shaped guard.

Perhaps this weapon was used throughout northern Europe.

I thought it was funny to read about this thing for the first time tonight, and then I get this book and one of the first pages I flip to, shows this swordstaff. I just thought I would share.

Travis


Thanks for the heads up Travis. Uhm... Do you know if you can provide a scan of the picture or if I can find it online somewhere?
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Sun 25 Dec, 2005 6:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a link to a online version.
http://www.artchive.com/artchive/B/bruegel/mad_meg.jpg.html

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Travis Canaday




Location: Overland Park, Kansas
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PostPosted: Sun 25 Dec, 2005 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for posting that link. You can see it pretty clearly there. It is a bit more eye catching when you can see the corner of the painting on a 34 by 25cm page. There are actually little dots painted to show the rivets on the shaft where the blade is attached. Maybe the S-guard is a little more pronounced, but it almost right on with yours. That might as well be your swordstaff at the gates of hell.

Very cool swordstaff by the way. I really like the look of it.

Travis

Travis
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Wolfgang Armbruster





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PostPosted: Sun 25 Dec, 2005 11:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are quite a few Dürer-woodcuts depicting similar weapons. This one shows a spear/pike with a crescent crossguard, almost like the Japanese Yari discussed earlier in this thread.

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Joachim Nilsson





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PostPosted: Sun 25 Dec, 2005 7:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Travis Canaday wrote:
Thanks for posting that link. You can see it pretty clearly there.
Travis


I'm sorry, but I must be blind, but I'm having trouble seeing it...
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