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Colt Reeves
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 Posted: Tue 04 Oct, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Many of us have our times, places, nationality, and types of harness we like, but honestly even those we don't like are still incredibly awesome when done right.  I don't and didn't have any real interest in a Greek outfit, but I'm still impressed by seeing all those guys in kit. Looks like the real deal...
"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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David Huggins
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| Posted: Wed 05 Oct, 2011 1:21 am Post subject: show us |
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Christian
I echo Colts and our other fellow forumites praise, outstanding impressions and fantastic photos. Thanks for sharing.
best wishes
Dave
and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Christian G. Cameron
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| Posted: Wed 05 Oct, 2011 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Colt--late 14th c. Italy will always be my first love.m Ancient Greece--not my fav kit--still has some sort of miraculous "gestalt" where one set of kit is okay, but fifty are beyond amazing...
Christian G. Cameron
Qui plus fait, miex vault
www.hippeis.com
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William P
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| Posted: Mon 10 Oct, 2011 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Christian G. Cameron wrote: | | Colt--late 14th c. Italy will always be my first love.m Ancient Greece--not my fav kit--still has some sort of miraculous "gestalt" where one set of kit is okay, but fifty are beyond amazing... |
thats becase ONE it is good, but its rare at reenactment events thats why those 6 vendel period guys who look like 6 long dead saxon kings stepped outof a time machine, are so amazing, its because you have such a concentration of awsomeness.
the fact that in any reenactment group you (im speclating here) will probably only get a small handful, one in 10 or 20 members who have those REALLY well done up,and stunningly executed kits.
theres a joke going around my group of this guy in eastern europe who has earned, in equal measure, the ire and the admiration of us because not only is he supposedly reenacting n every major historical period but that he does it inexplicably well being shown in 4 horse chariots, him and his friends holding a ball at some major palace i think it might have been czech or polish i can remember, in baroque outfit, and again, stunningly WELL DONE
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Christian G. Cameron
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| Posted: Mon 10 Oct, 2011 9:20 am Post subject: |
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William--it may be so. But I do three periods, and I've seen the ne plus ultra of each. And while my favorite remains seeing a thousand British regulars in 1778, fifty Greek hoplites--all different, all individually kitted, yet all together--is, somehow, deeply moving.
Anyway... must get my head out of Marathon...
Christian G. Cameron
Qui plus fait, miex vault
www.hippeis.com
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Justin Lee Hunt
Location: North Baltimore OH Joined: 28 Jun 2011
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Mon 10 Oct, 2011 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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This is my revised late 13th C kit, tell me what you guys think. I'm always trying to find ways to improve it. By the way, please ignore the hobbit in the corner. he was just a visitor's child who thought it would be cool to get in the shot with a knight. Six is a great age to become aquainted with reenactment.
In the second pic is my squire and I. He wanted to start training in a great helm. He's 13 and asked his parents for a greathelm for Christmas. They said he had to try it out for a while before they would get him one, so I lent him a spare that I have.
I opperate a website for my reenactment troop it's www.orderoftherouseclan.org Be sure to check out our forums www.orderoftherouseclan.proboards.com
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Christopher VaughnStrever
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| Posted: Tue 11 Oct, 2011 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Well my daughter wanted to start her kit with Taking some pieces of my kit! lol...well here she is sporting her merc tailor sallet
Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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Justin Lee Hunt
Location: North Baltimore OH Joined: 28 Jun 2011
Posts: 38
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 11 Oct, 2011 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Christopher VaughnStrever wrote: | Well my daughter wanted to start her kit with Taking some pieces of my kit! lol...well here she is sporting her merc tailor sallet
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That's so CUTE.  
The second pic from the back sort of reminds me of " DARK HELMET " in the Mel Brooks movie " SPACEBALLS ", Star Wars parody: Not too surprising since Darth Vader's helmet is obviously inspired by German Sallets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceballs
Dark Helmet:
http://www.google.ca/search?q=dark+helmet+cos...mp;bih=984
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Christian G. Cameron
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| Posted: Wed 12 Oct, 2011 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Laughed really hard.
Christian G. Cameron
Qui plus fait, miex vault
www.hippeis.com
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Sjors B
Location: Zevenaar, The Netherlands Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed 12 Oct, 2011 10:00 am Post subject: |
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were is that helmet going with that litle girl XD
member of the langenort school for European martial arts in Nijmegen (NL)
http://www.historicalshows.com/
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Brian Robson
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Lee Hunt wrote: | | This is my revised late 13th C kit, tell me what you guys think. I'm always trying to find ways to improve it. |
If you're looking to improve it, I'd suggest the following (Assuming you're going for a very late 13c persona given the sugarloaf). NB this would be based on our standards for the UK re-enactment scene - and probably far more picky than you want to be - so obviously tailor it for your own aims and just take what you want from it:
Surcoat
One of the biggest - most stand-out parts of kit for the period (and often most commonly open to improvement!) - so I'll mention this first.
The biggest problem here is the lack of side joins. You should really be aiming for something that is more like a tunic without sleeves. It should have a fullness in the skirt (from gores) and fairly small holes for the arms (but sometimes with a tie under each arm making it easier to dress). There should definately not be a side split in the skirt part and waist.
Hard to say from the picture - but is it wool? If so, those velvet-looking shield designs don't fit well. I'd stick with the same material - it just looks more 'consistent'. On colour, the blue looks too deep for me and suggests a colour only possible from modern chemical dyes. Woad would give a softer (and very slightly greenish-tinged) colour. The red on those shields would also be too deep too.
For heraldry, for English arms, you should go for colour-on-metal or metal-on-colour (but I believe colour-on-colour is ok for many mainland European countries). I just think the English rules make it stand out more.
I'd also suggest a lining inside the surcoat of a contrasting colour.
Ailettes
I don't think I've ever seen them 'shield-shape' before. In period pics, the'yre usually rectangular. For very late 13c they should mirror the coat of arms on your surcoat and shield. Nice to see them included though!
Armour
If you're determined to do 13c as opposed to 14c, then it's all about mail, mail and more mail. Even at the very end of the 13c, the vast majority of armour depicted in manuscript images shows full mail arms, legs and feet.. here's a pic of one of our guys (early-mid 13c) - http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/Dawn...nt=030.jpg For late 13c armour, this should just be a start-point for you - but also include gamboised cuisses + poleyn, coat of plates and optionally, couters/shynbald.
Should also have a gamby under that mail.
Accessories
Period shoes (but I guess you know that!) and as mentioned above - covered with mail).
For the belt, go for a narrow belt with a nice period buckle+strap. The seperate sword-belt of the period should be thicker, buckled and richly decorated with cast studs/bars - and fixed correctly to the scabbard (belt+scabbard being in fact one item). To get right though, it will be expensive.. (one of the reasons we do mid-13 rather than late)
As I say, take from it what you want from that. I don't say the above in criticism because I understand that everyone has different goals as to what they want to achieve, and are at different points along their path to achieving it. Good luck on your journey.
I would make one comment though. You seem to want to include items of plate (greaves.wrists etc.). Are you sure 13c is the right period for you as opposed to early 14c?
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Ray Guethler
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 6:53 am Post subject: |
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I found Brian's post to be very informative and I certainly hope someone can give me similar pointers when I finally get around to posting a pic of my kit.
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Justin Lee Hunt
Location: North Baltimore OH Joined: 28 Jun 2011
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Brian Robson wrote: | | Justin Lee Hunt wrote: | | This is my revised late 13th C kit, tell me what you guys think. I'm always trying to find ways to improve it. |
If you're looking to improve it, I'd suggest the following (Assuming you're going for a very late 13c persona given the sugarloaf). NB this would be based on our standards for the UK re-enactment scene - and probably far more picky than you want to be - so obviously tailor it for your own aims and just take what you want from it:
Surcoat
One of the biggest - most stand-out parts of kit for the period (and often most commonly open to improvement!) - so I'll mention this first.
The biggest problem here is the lack of side joins. You should really be aiming for something that is more like a tunic without sleeves. It should have a fullness in the skirt (from gores) and fairly small holes for the arms (but sometimes with a tie under each arm making it easier to dress). There should definately not be a side split in the skirt part and waist.
Hard to say from the picture - but is it wool? If so, those velvet-looking shield designs don't fit well. I'd stick with the same material - it just looks more 'consistent'. On colour, the blue looks too deep for me and suggests a colour only possible from modern chemical dyes. Woad would give a softer (and very slightly greenish-tinged) colour. The red on those shields would also be too deep too.
For heraldry, for English arms, you should go for colour-on-metal or metal-on-colour (but I believe colour-on-colour is ok for many mainland European countries). I just think the English rules make it stand out more.
I'd also suggest a lining inside the surcoat of a contrasting colour.
Ailettes
I don't think I've ever seen them 'shield-shape' before. In period pics, the'yre usually rectangular. For very late 13c they should mirror the coat of arms on your surcoat and shield. Nice to see them included though!
Armour
If you're determined to do 13c as opposed to 14c, then it's all about mail, mail and more mail. Even at the very end of the 13c, the vast majority of armour depicted in manuscript images shows full mail arms, legs and feet.. here's a pic of one of our guys (early-mid 13c) - http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/Dawn...nt=030.jpg For late 13c armour, this should just be a start-point for you - but also include gamboised cuisses + poleyn, coat of plates and optionally, couters/shynbald.
Should also have a gamby under that mail.
Accessories
Period shoes (but I guess you know that!) and as mentioned above - covered with mail).
For the belt, go for a narrow belt with a nice period buckle+strap. The seperate sword-belt of the period should be thicker, buckled and richly decorated with cast studs/bars - and fixed correctly to the scabbard (belt+scabbard being in fact one item). To get right though, it will be expensive.. (one of the reasons we do mid-13 rather than late)
As I say, take from it what you want from that. I don't say the above in criticism because I understand that everyone has different goals as to what they want to achieve, and are at different points along their path to achieving it. Good luck on your journey.
I would make one comment though. You seem to want to include items of plate (greaves.wrists etc.). Are you sure 13c is the right period for you as opposed to early 14c? |
I thank you for your help. This kit here is the middle point in my converting my early 14c kit into a late 13c. Curently in the works are a pair of schynbalds, which should be finished early in the spring (I don't have much time to work on the things I enjoy), and a pair of the cuisses to match the gambeson that I have, but chose not to wear since we were going to go hiking in the woods for the next location on the shoot. I was goining to add an attached poleyn to the edge of them. I have had problems finding maille leggings for my hight, I am 6ft. 2in. (roughly 188cm). I was considering cutting off a pair of standard size and attaching them at the knee of the cuisses. I am looking for a person that can make me a pair of maille sabatons. I need them for a size 13 US (12 UK) But I still havent found anyone I trust yet. My next larger investment is a full sleeve, knee length hauberk. I am adding laces around the wrist so that the plates on the gauntlets will be covered. The surcote is the first non-heraldic surcote that I have ever been photographed in. I will include a pic af the surcote that I usually wear, the ailettes match it.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii234/SirDidymous/IMG_1476.jpg
The Heraldry is from Germany, and traveled with the family to England (http://www.orderoftherouseclan.org/Sir-Didymous-LaRoth-s-Info.html) for the story. And as to the shield-shaped ailettes, I found a miniature that I think appears to be just that very thing. I'll include it as well. Thier shields in this appear to be slung across the back and there seems to be shield shaped ailettes worn on the left arm.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii234/SirDidymous/166-1.jpg
I could be mistaken since this is a later period. But there have been visual representation of many shapes of ailette, and with no surviving examples to say I'm way off, I'm willing to go out on a limb and wear them anyhow. Thanks though.
I opperate a website for my reenactment troop it's www.orderoftherouseclan.org Be sure to check out our forums www.orderoftherouseclan.proboards.com
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Brian Robson
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| Posted: Fri 14 Oct, 2011 3:00 am Post subject: |
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Hi Justin,
I had a feeling you would already be on your way with many of my suggestions!
Like you, our group are in the process of moving period (from 1190 to 1250) - so have some inconsistencies as kit is gradually changed/replaced - so I know exactly where you're at! (I'll send a pic of my kit when I'm happy that I've finsihed with my move - hopefully be ready for spring)
That red surcote looks a lot better. Nice to see a true semi-circular mantle too (I'm currently in the process of making one.. taking ages - there's an awful lot of hem to hand-stitch!). Most I see for sale have shaping put in for the neck which just isn't right for the period.
On the mail issue, I'd definately suggest getting stuck in and doing some tailoring yourself. Off the shelf stuff never fits well and I really find it a trial and error process (ie to get the right shape - not too loose or baggy thereby reducing extra weight - yet being loose enough in the right places so movement isn't restricted).
For mail chausses, I've cheated in the past when doing late 13c by, as you suggest, cutting the mail off just below the knee. This actually worked very well in that I had slightly longer gamboised cuisses made (coming down to mid-shin) to provide cushioning underneath the tie at the top of the chausses - adding a lot of comfort. The poleyns I had then helped to keep the knee part of the cuisses in place (they were buckled over the cuisses rather than attatched to them). If you go down this route, the spare mail from chopping off the top of the chausses could be used to get your sabatons right.
Also, I've always found off-the-shelf chausses too baggy (especially around the ankle as they are often tubes and not shaped nearly enough - if at all), and like to spend time 'pulling them in'. But it often means needing to leave a split at the back of the ankle (to get your heel through when pulling htem on) which I tie with a bit of thong.
On the ailettes, that's an intrieging link you've posted. It first glance, I would have said that it was a shield on their arm and ailletes on their back (often see them at strange angles) - but it does look like you can see a bottom edge of the shield peeking out behind the guy on the left (or is it the lining of his surcoat with a big side opening?).
But I do believe that is a shield on his arm and not an ailette as shields did get very small at that time and are often seen strapped to the upper arm (not shoulder) - see how much of the forearm sticks out of these:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/histoire-du-s...ncai/1396/
Contrary to the common view, I actually believe that ailettes were also a kind of armour - and made in the same way as shields (wood faced with leather). My reasoning is that having seen a manuscript painting some time ago (and I wish I could find it now) showing longsword use on foot in 2-hands, where the combatants had these short shields strapped to their upper arms - and ailettes on shoulders - makes me think that coat-of-plates make shield coverage of the body less important - and 2-hands on weapons more important. I think that making the shield smaller and covering the gap at the shoulder with an ailette (ie a smaller piece of shield) almost gives a kind of segmented shielded side - giving you the movement to use shields with two handed weapons along with the protection to your left side (probably needed more against arrows and mounted vs lances). I also wonder that if they were purely heraldic - why would they disappear as armour coverage improves? (could always just be fashion of course).
NB. On looking at a lot more images of ailettes, I've seen quite a lot which are circular. Still no definate shield-shapes though...
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Justin Lee Hunt
Location: North Baltimore OH Joined: 28 Jun 2011
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sat 15 Oct, 2011 1:38 am Post subject: |
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My ailettes are definatly armor. I took a sword to my right shoulder during our group's tourney, and if they hadn't been there I would be far worse off. Mine are made of slightly thinner wood than my shield (about 1/2 as thick). I have plans on making a pair of squares, but that's only for times when I have to be at the peak of accuracy (normally our group works on the philosophy that if there is nothing saying it couldn't have happened, then why not), but there are times when interpretations must be strict. Our group's seamstress, who in exchange for dues exemption does the historical sewing at cost for the members, made the mantle and surcote in the pic. I had those made when I was named baron, that's been around two promotions ago. They are both still in good condition. Right now since our period is transitional, with the next year being 1299 (our group's period progresses giving our characters more depth), I am also weighing the pros and cons of making a plated surcote. It would eliminate the need for both a coat of plates and a surcote, and it is within our general period range, but I'm at a loss of what the outer material should be. I had thought about heavy canvas so that I could just paint the heraldry on it, but I just don't know.
I opperate a website for my reenactment troop it's www.orderoftherouseclan.org Be sure to check out our forums www.orderoftherouseclan.proboards.com
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S. Sebok
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| Posted: Fri 11 Nov, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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My new full kit. I dunno what I should add to it if you could suggest things go right ahead. I am currently satisfied with this kit other than the horribly HOT gambeson I use under the maille which has a poly fill. Need to replace that with a new one just dont know where to find one.
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Thomas R.
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| Posted: Fri 11 Nov, 2011 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| S. Sebok wrote: |
My new full kit. I dunno what I should add to it if you could suggest things go right ahead. I am currently satisfied with this kit other than the horribly HOT gambeson I use under the maille which has a poly fill. Need to replace that with a new one just dont know where to find one. |
Hi,
some ideas for you (supposing you are portraying a 13th century sergeant/knight):
- tailor your maille arms to your shape
- switch the thors hammer necklace to a cross pendant
- wear a surcott
- paint your helmet
- replace modern looking belt buckles
- attach a maille coif or get a separate one, same with the gauntlets
Regards, Thomas
http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
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Justin Lee Hunt
Location: North Baltimore OH Joined: 28 Jun 2011
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sat 12 Nov, 2011 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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The Thor's hammer kind of threw me a little too, and I highly recommend a surcote. It really finishes the look. As per the gambeson, I've never had one that wasn't crazy hot. I had mine made and it's still rather warm in the summer.
I opperate a website for my reenactment troop it's www.orderoftherouseclan.org Be sure to check out our forums www.orderoftherouseclan.proboards.com
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David Lewis Smith
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| Posted: Sat 12 Nov, 2011 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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S Sebok
A casual observation from someone who spends a lot of time in armour, both medieval and modern military ballistic armour. You do not look comfortable in your kit, especially the last photo where you are standing ‘at ease’. Consider some small leather lacing woven through your maile to adjust where the weight rests on both your body and arms. I have lacing like that at the throat to about mid chest to ‘size’ my maile, I also use my belt to hold some of the weight.
As for a gambeson I cheat, a lot. I use a PRC (pro rodeo) bull riders vest. Its under the armour so no one sees it, it has great impact absorbing qualities. Mine is black with a cloth exterior. I wear underarmour under my armour as well. Gambesons are basically jackets as you know and bloody warm. You can make your own however if you have any skill sewing and leave out every other ‘quilt’ and use a sweat distributing cloth. Doing any kind of serous reinacting in hot weather sucks. I am in North Carolina normally and late May through mid September is ‘challenging’.
Making a more period looking buckle is fairly easy and most of the things you need can be found at Lowe’s or Home Depot. There are lots of places to buy the stuff on line but there is a satisfaction of making the stuff yourself.
Over all it is a great looking kit that just needs some minor tweaking
David L Smith
MSG (RET)
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